Pal speedup?

[Mark Haywood]

Hi guys. :)

Having just received Men in Black Superbit R3, I decided to do a quick comparison with the R2 Limited Edition I have.

As far as picture goes I'd say the Superbit is just a tad sharper, giving a more "3D" image (on a Tosh 36ZP18P T.V./Tosh SD900 DVD player). The DTS track is where it becomes interesting! Being a bit of an Elvis fan, in my youth, I noticed that towards the end of the movie, when Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones are in their "Supercar" going through the tunnel with Will Smith upside down and Elvis singing "Promised Land" on the 8 track, that the difference between Pal DD5.1 and NTSC DTS5.1 is, apparently, noticeable due, I guess, to Pal speedup? Will Smith says,

"You do know that Elvis is dead, right?" and Tommy Lee replies,

"No, Elvis is not dead........he just went home!" and Elvis sings in agreement!

Now, it seems to me that Tommy Lee's line, on the R2 version, sounds a little speeded up in comparison with the R3. And even more obvious is Elvis' singing. On the R2 he sounds high-pitched and FAST. On the R3 he sounds like the drawling, Misiissippi boy I know!

Having read some of the issues regarding Pal speedup on The Lord of the Rings Extended Edition, I sold my R2 copy and bought the R1. I'm pleased I did, just for the packaging..........but does anybody know of any more DVDs where this effect is apparent..............assuming I've got it right and the difference I've mentioned is due to Pal speedup?!

[Daneel]

With the lord of the rings, for audio, the point was they corrected for PAL speed up. There should be no difference at all pitch wise. Unfortunately the process was not perfect and added problems to the audio which some people can hear.

In most cases, as you have disconvered, this correction is not done and the sound is slightly higher pitched and faster on a PAL version vs NTSC.

[Mark Haywood]

I've read about what was done to LOTR audio re pitch correction. Of course the audio, and video, is still speeded-up by 4%, but the pitch has been made similar to the R1.

I just wondered if anybody had noticed any other scenes in DVDs where this speedup was apparent.

[Daneel]

You are right, the speed up is still there, it was just the pitch that was corrected. That's what I get for typing anything remotly technical in the morning. In my experience it isn't noticable at all unless you have the 2 side by side and can switch between them.

[Mark Haywood]

Originally posted by Daneel
You are right, the speed up is still there, it was just the pitch that was corrected. That's what I get for typing anything remotly technical in the morning.

;)

Originally posted by Daneel
In my experience it isn't noticable at all unless you have the 2 side by side and can switch between them.

I know what you mean! But being a bit of an Elvis nut I really did notice the speedup (and higher pitch) immediately on the R2 version of MIB. Having noticed that, though, it then became obvious that Tommy Lee's voice was also noticably faster and higher-pitched.

I just feel that having shelled-out a fair few squidlets on my system that these "little annoyances" have persuaded me to bypass Pal-encoded discs in favour of NTSC encoded ones! :smoke:

[Family Guy]

But surely someone who owned only a R2 player and discs wouldn't even know about speed up...:confused:
I've never noticed it...then again, I'm mutton in my left ear anyway...

[Mark Haywood]

Originally posted by Army Bloke
But surely someone who owned only a R2 player and discs wouldn't even know about speed up...:confused:


I disagree! ;) I noticed the speedup and pitch "fault" with the Elvis clip in MIB immediately before the NTSC comparison!

It's a bit like knowing that there are 100Htz "scrolling interference bands" on your T.V. Once you know they are there you see them all the time and it can affect your enjoyment of the movie you're watching. The same has happened to me re: Pal speedup! Now I've experienced it, I'd just rather it wasn't there..........so from now on I'll buy Never The Same Color Twice DVDs!

It's not a major bug-bear, but as my DVD player has progressive scan ability, and I will be purchasing a Prog. scan T.V. soon I think the benefits of NTSC DVDs definately suggest bypassing Pal discs!

At least until "the- powers-that-be" convert 24 frames of Pal into 25 of NTSC internally DVD player wise.

Of course if the speedup issue isn't noticable, if you're a bit "mutton" ;) or whatever, then I guess it would certainly be cheaper to keep all those high-pitched, amphetamine junkied R2 DVDs. :devil:

[Kevo]

Look at this way....

If you watch on avg, 2 x 2hr films a week on PAL TV/ R2 DVD you will 'gain' around 8 hours a year as opposed to NTSC/R1 :)

Which is the equivalent of another 4 films!

[Mark Haywood]

Originally posted by Kevo
Look at this way....

If you watch on avg, 2 x 2hr films a week on PAL TV/ R2 DVD you will 'gain' around 8 hours a year as opposed to NTSC/R1 :)

Which is the equivalent of another 4 films!


Kevo, you cynic! :grin:

[Squirrel God]

Consider TV boxsets. You save about an hour of your life watching an entire PAL X-Files season compared to the same season on NTSC.

I only notice PAL speed-up with music that I'm familiar with, never on anything else. Might be because I play an instrument and so know what a particular song should sound like (nurture) or it's just an ability that's always been there (nature). I can't tell with music I'm not familiar with though.

[Family Guy]

But what about stuff that was Pal sourced in the first place? TV shows for eg - Blackadder.
Do you think Americans notice the 4% slowdown?
Movies like The Full Monty and ALL of the Bonds are produced in Britain and must surely be Pal sourced...is slowdown an issue over there? Or is Pal speedup a figment of everyone's imagination...like dts?;) :devil:

[Gary D]

i did a comparision of two versions of Dances with wolves last weekend and while there was a difference in the pitch, as Daneel points out it only really noticable if you play them side by side.

Other than that i dont really think its worth worrying about. I will still buy my titles based on if i like the film, what extras it has and how much its going to cost me. I've spent the last 38 years watching PAL so i think i'm used to it now.

A quick question - are you all watching the film or the equipment its playing on? :cool:

Gary

[Family Guy]

Originally posted by Garyd

A quick question - are you all watching the film or the equipment its playing on? :cool:
Gary

That's a good point. I for one would never buy a disc just because it had soundtrack A and soundtrack B sounded poo according to a DVD review on the forums...
If a film I wanted was only available in Pal, then I would buy it. Also, if the R1 & R2 versions were the same to the letter, I would pop into Smiths and buy the R2 because it would be more conviniant...

[nathan_silly]

I have Rex the Runt boxset on Region 1. Was this shot for the PAL market? Like you said, it's been 4% slowed down.

But it's not even out on Region 2. So whatcha gonna do? Wait for donkey years to own it?

Btw, sound & picture is very good.

[Mark Haywood]

Originally posted by Squirrel God
Consider TV boxsets. You save about an hour of your life watching an entire PAL X-Files season compared to the same season on NTSC.

Whilst this may be true, I don't really understand the relevence! One could "save" even more time if one watched a movie/boxset even faster! The point is I don't watch DVDs in order to save time! I have a "middling" system set up and it sounds very good.................and as I have a choice, the sensible option, it seems to me, is to choose NTSC over Pal where the Pal speedup is in force.


Originally posted by Garyd
i did a comparision of two versions of Dances with wolves last weekend and while there was a difference in the pitch, as Daneel points out it only really noticable if you play them side by side.

To me this is interesting! The "side-by-side" comparison argument can be used in many areas. How many people would be perfectly satisfied with having Dolby Digital encoding only on a DVD if DTS had never emerged as a rival? The only way to really experience the difference is to compare "side-by-side"! And if DTS sounds better to me on my system, I'd listen to the DTS track!


Originally posted by nathan_silly
I have Rex the Runt boxset on Region 1. Was this shot for the PAL market? Like you said, it's been 4% slowed down.

But it's not even out on Region 2. So whatcha gonna do? Wait for donkey years to own it?

Btw, sound & picture is very good.

Nathan...........I am of "mature years" now, so waiting a while for a "mere" DVD is no hardship for me! If you are eager for the earliest release, and are happy with NTSC slow-down or Pal Speed-up, then I think you've probably made the right decision.

[Squirrel God]

Originally posted by Sigismund
Whilst this may be true, I don't really understand the relevence! One could "save" even more time if one watched a movie/boxset even faster! The point is I don't watch DVDs in order to save time! I have a "middling" system set up and it sounds very good.................and as I have a choice, the sensible option, it seems to me, is to choose NTSC over Pal where the Pal speedup is in force.
Perhaps I should've added a smiley at the end ;)

[Squirrel God]

Why all this talk of NTSC slowdown? It doesn't exist!

[Mark Haywood]

Squirrel God - You are forgiven ;) :devil:

I think I may know what you mean re NTSC "slow-down", but could you please explain, in your usual erudite manner, why Pal to NTSC conversion doesn't, from an original Pal source, leave us with a "slow-down" and therefore deepening of pitch? :kisses:

Cheers, mate. :boring: oops, sorry, I mean :p no, no, no I mean ;) ahhh that's better :grin: :devil: :grin:

[nathan_silly]

So Pal to NTSC aren't slowed down?

That's cool, as I own a few British shows on Region 1- Blackadder, Fawlty Towers & Rex the Runt (and will be buying Red Dward 3-6, Young Ones & Bottom)

[Squirrel God]

Briefly .....

PAL speedup occurs when we go from 24fps to 25fps. This we know

PAL runs at 25fps. NTSC runs at 30fps (actually 29.97). This we know too.

So how could you get slowdown going from 25fps (PAL) to 30fps (NTSC)? In actual fact, you could get NTSC speedup. But to go from PAL to NTSC you couldn't possibly speedup from 25fps to 30fps - it's too noticeable (approx 17% speedup!)

So it's the same as with going from 24fps to 30fps (for film) as when we go from 25fps to 30fps for NTSC. Repeated frames.

So now you're thinking, well how come we get PAL speedup on TV shows which are NTSC? Surely we are going from 30fps to 25fps? Well we don't because we're not. TV shows are recorded on film (these days anyway). A process called DEFT (Digital Electronic Film Transfer) is then used which removes the 3:2 pulldown to recover the original 24fps frames (since the extra frames were only duplicates to generate 30fps). The transfer then proceeds as with film (more or less).

[Mark Haywood]

OK that may be "erudite", but I don't understand it completely!

Do you mean nothing is recorded over here at 25fps, presumably with no repeating frames, and then transferred to NTSC 24fps?

:eek:

[figrin_dan]

Originally posted by Army Bloke
Movies like The Full Monty and ALL of the Bonds are produced in Britain and must surely be Pal sourced

I believe that these were all made on film and not video.

[StooMonster]

Originally posted by Squirrel God
Briefly .....

PAL speedup occurs when we go from 24fps to 25fps. This we know

PAL runs at 25fps. NTSC runs at 30fps (actually 29.97). This we know too.

So how could you get slowdown going from 25fps (PAL) to 30fps (NTSC)? In actual fact, you could get NTSC speedup. But to go from PAL to NTSC you couldn't possibly speedup from 25fps to 30fps - it's too noticeable (approx 17% speedup!)

So it's the same as with going from 24fps to 30fps (for film) as when we go from 25fps to 30fps for NTSC. Repeated frames.

So now you're thinking, well how come we get PAL speedup on TV shows which are NTSC? Surely we are going from 30fps to 25fps? Well we don't because we're not. TV shows are recorded on film (these days anyway). A process called DEFT (Digital Electronic Film Transfer) is then used which removes the 3:2 pulldown to recover the original 24fps frames (since the extra frames were only duplicates to generate 30fps). The transfer then proceeds as with film (more or less).

Is the 60Hz NTSC version not made by doing a 3:2 process on 25fps PAL content -- treating it as if it were film (as per US television productions) -- therefore slowing it down?

If there were repeated fields, in converting 25fps to 30fps, would there not be a visible judder?

Either way, as NTSC version loses 17% of PAL vertical resolution (downscaling 576 rows to 480) it's not the best way to watch British television video sourced content.

StooMonster

[StooMonster]

Furthermore, post-production products like Deliverance state in their specifications that they can "Slow PAL SD [standard definition] to NTSC SD with 3:2 pulldown", also refered to as "Slow PAL to 525" function by other companies.

Hrm... NTSC slowdown anyone? :clown:

StooMonster

[StooMonster]

Originally posted by Sigismund
OK that may be "erudite", but I don't understand it completely!

Do you mean nothing is recorded over here at 25fps, presumably with no repeating frames, and then transferred to NTSC 24fps?

:eek:
No, it's totally incorrect... admittedly American television programmes tend to be shot on film, and have been since the late 50s early 60s ... but everything shot here in UK and in the rest of the PAL world is shot at 25fps either on film or video.

25fps on film? Yes, a film camera isn't limited to one speed; and it's easy to telecine 2:2 for most of your global audience (PAL broadcaster customers) and then telecine 25fps to 60Hz using 3:2 pulldown and 4% slowdown (NTSC broadcaster customers).

Although most British television productions have typically been shot on video instead, at 25fps; there is a wide range of programmes shot on film at 25fps. Interestingly this also enabled early adoption of digital video technology in PAL countries as the first generations of digital cameras only shot at 25fps or 30fps and not at 24fps (which was required for US television or cinema).

StooMonster

[Squirrel God]

Hi Stoo,

Originally posted by StooMonster
Is the 60Hz NTSC version not made by doing a 3:2 process on 25fps PAL content -- treating it as if it were film (as per US television productions) -- therefore slowing it down?
Yes, process is the same as if it were film. That's what I said! Look:

Originally posted by Squirrel God
So it's the same as with going from 24fps to 30fps (for film) as when we go from 25fps to 30fps for NTSC. Repeated frames.

:)

Repeated frames is in essence what 3:2 pulldown is (bit more complicated than that though, involves fields). But it doesn't actually slow anything down - it just adds repeated frames to make a slower frame rate (film/PAL) compatible with a higher frame rate (NTSC).

Decent illustration/explanation here: http://www.divx.com/support/guides/guide.php?gid=10 (scroll down a bit)

Originally posted by StooMonster
If there were repeated fields, in converting 25fps to 30fps, would there not be a visible judder?
Yes, the same judder you get with film transfers to NTSC (24fps to 30fps). Most noticeable on panning shots.

Originally posted by StooMonster
Either way, as NTSC version loses 17% of PAL vertical resolution (downscaling 576 rows to 480) it's not the best way to watch British television video sourced content.
Agree :)

Originally posted by StooMonster
Furthermore, post-production products like Deliverance state in their specifications that they can "Slow PAL SD [standard definition] to NTSC SD with 3:2 pulldown", also refered to as "Slow PAL to 525" function by other companies.

Hrm... NTSC slowdown anyone? :clown:

I'm not familiar with them, but sounds alright to me. Just 3:2 pulldown which is the addition of the extra fields/frames to make 25fps compatible with 30fps. It's not actually slowing down the video though - you're not actually slowing down 25fps to 30fps. First, it's impossible since NTSC has the faster frame rate and you want to go to NTSC! Second, even if PAL had the faster frame rate, 5fps is a hell of a difference - if you slowed down anything by 5fps it would sound awful so you can't do it. We only use PAL speedup because it's only 1fps difference between film and PAL.

Terminology is the bone of contention here by the looks of it. I don't use the term "slowdown" at all as it's misleading - it implies the opposite of speedup, which is not the case.

Originally posted by StooMonster
No, it's totally incorrect... admittedly American television programmes tend to be shot on film, and have been since the late 50s early 60s ... but everything shot here in UK and in the rest of the PAL world is shot at 25fps either on film or video.

25fps on film? Yes, a film camera isn't limited to one speed; and it's easy to telecine 2:2 for most of your global audience (PAL broadcaster customers) and then telecine 25fps to 60Hz using 3:2 pulldown and 4% slowdown (NTSC broadcaster customers).

Although most British television productions have typically been shot on video instead, at 25fps; there is a wide range of programmes shot on film at 25fps. Interestingly this also enabled early adoption of digital video technology in PAL countries as the first generations of digital cameras only shot at 25fps or 30fps and not at 24fps (which was required for US television or cinema).

Nothing I want to comment on with regards to the above (apart from perhaps you're insistence on using the word "slowdown" ;)), but wanted to add a little to what you've said for Sigismund's benefit :)

It's important to note that if something is shot in film, it doesn't mean it stays on film. I think that's maybe where confusion can arise. The film must then be prepared for broadcast at the appropriate resolution and frame rate, and conversions are often done off that (that's why DEFT is used for US shows to go back to 24fps).

[Mark Haywood]

OK Squirrel, Ithink I understand! So...........if a movie/T.V. series is shot over here it will be shot at 24fps, and if transferred to NTSC it will be "adjusted" using DEFT to remove the "extra frames"......................but I still don't get this 30fps lark!! I thought it was 25fps for NTSC and 24fps for Pal, or is this only for T.V.? And the standard for film throughout the world is 30 fps? And if I've got that right does that then mean that even if a movie/T.V. series is filmed over here for the U.K. market it will still "suffer" from Pal speed-up?

[Squirrel God]

You have your frame rates all muddled mate. Re-read the thread again ;)

[Mark Haywood]

OK is that better? :blush:

[Squirrel God]

Originally posted by Sigismund
OK is that better? :blush:
No :(

PAL 25fps
NTSC 30fps
Film 24fps

DEFT is used for NTSC to PAL conversions (explained above). 3:2 pulldown is used for PAL to NTSC conversions (explained above, follow link too).

In other words, converting TV shows from PAL to NTSC uses the same technique as converting from film to NTSC (more or less, we'll ignore resolution differences etc).

Therefore, with regards to your original question, there is no change in running time, nor any deepening of soundtrack pitch when watching UK TV shows on NTSC. There are other side-effects/downsides however, which are covered above (I won't mention them again here as I don't want to introduce any unnecessary complexity).

[Daneel]

SG, as Stoo pointed out earlier Film is not necessarily 24 fps, that is NTSC Film, PAL Film is 25 fps.

I'm sure I linked to an article explaining this not too long ago. /me goes to look.

[Squirrel God]

Originally posted by Daneel
SG, as Stoo pointed out earlier Film is not necessarily 24 fps, that is NTSC Film, PAL Film is 25 fps.

I'm sure I linked to an article explaining this not too long ago. /me goes to look.
Daneel,

Yes, but I'm trying to keep it to just the bare essentials here for ease of understanding ;)

I think it's easier if we just knock film out of the equation altogether actually and ignore it. As we're talking about TV shows, better to just think of PAL at 25fps and NTSC at 30fps. I only even mentioned film in the first place to explain why DEFT is used for NTSC to PAL conversions.

[Mark Haywood]

OK, thanks.......I see where I was going wrong! After reading about the pitch correction that was done to The Lord of the Rings and how the Pal soundtrack was approx 4% faster I had assumed that what was meant was that Pal ran at 25fps and NTSC at 24fps.

Thanks for taking the time to explain!

[Squirrel God]

:)

[Mark Haywood]

Hey Guys and Gals. :grin:

I have that rather large grin on my face because I have received delivery of Ronin Ultimate Edition R2 Japan and Black Hawk Down Superbit R3 Korea. Oh boy, rather good! Anyway, I just thought I would mention, (I hope you don't think I'm banging on..and if you do, please let me know :kisses:) that the Pal speed-up thing is, again, quite noticable on Ronin, at least! During the car chase towards the end of the movie there are a few scenes that, once you've seen the NTSC version appear so speeded up in the Pal version as to appear "cartoonish"!

If you're all bored with my Pal V NTSC argument, please forgive me. It's just that now I've seen it, I'm like a kid with a new toy! It really is so apparent to me, now, that I am forced to rid myself of all my Pal DVDs and replace them with the best NTSC versions available.

[nathan_silly]

Originally posted by Sigismund
my Pal DVDs and replace them with the best NTSC versions available.

Or if you didn't buy any PAL DVD's in the first place (like who I wonder?):laugh: then you wouldn't need to replace them!

[Kevo]

Originally posted by Sigismund
I am forced to rid myself of all my Pal DVDs and replace them with the best NTSC versions available.

I look forward to seeing them advertised in the Classifieds Forum :)

[Mark Haywood]

You are so right, Nathan...............and it would be so much cheaper, also! :suicide: I tell you, though, having seen the quality of the Ronin (Ultimate) and B.H.D. Superbit packaging alone, I reckon it's worth it! And I've got so many in transit as we type..............Jurassic Park 1, 2 and 3 Superbits, X-Men 2 and Blade DTS...........I'm gonna be delirious pretty soon! :grin:

[Kevo]

Bit drastic if you ask me.

Replacing your whole collection based on one scene from a mediocre film like Ronin.

How many R2 DVDs do you have?

Sigismund, maybe you're getting a little bit too obsessed with all this 'pal speed up' stuff.

[Squirrel God]

Sigi,

As you watch your NTSC, be sure to look out for the 3:2 pulldown effects. Whenever the camera pans, or something moves across the screen, check out the way it judders. You don't even have to compare to PAL to notice this. Let's see if that irritates you :devil:

[Mark Haywood]

:mad: Don't get me going ;)

You know how you feel when you've noticed how your T.V. has some kind of 100Hz gremlin, or the green trails on a Tosh PF1/2, or something similar? It's not just one scene that has persuaded me, it started with Lord of the Rings Extended. I noticed the difference between the R1 and 2 DVDs and decided I preferred the R1. Then I bought MIB Superbit R3 from CDWow, and quickly zipped to the Elvis Promised Land scene in the tunnel. Elvis sounded high-pitched and too fast! Now I have the chance to compare Ronin NTSC and Pal, and it's quite obvious to me that in the Pal version people move too fast, litterally "cartoon-like"!

Believe me, I wouldn't be selling all my Pal discs and buying the NTSC versions if it wasn't obvious to me how much better the NTSC DVDs are!

The funny thing is I am usually the first person to think, "Here we go again, another nutter who's making a mountain out of a molehill"! But in this instance, now I've recognised the "symptoms" of Pal speed-up, it spoils the whole movie experience for me!

Having said that, I do seem to be on my own, here! :blush:

[nathan_silly]

Originally posted by Squirrel God
Sigi,

As you watch your NTSC, be sure to look out for the 3:2 pulldown effects. Whenever the camera pans, or something moves across the screen, check out the way it judders. You don't even have to compare to PAL to notice this. Let's see if that irritates you :devil:

That's what NTSC Progressive is for.

And how well does PAL Progressive work? It doesn't!:laugh:

[figrin_dan]

Originally posted by nathan_silly
And how well does PAL Progressive work? It doesn't!:laugh:

It doesn't?
Oh no, please explain.

[Mark Haywood]

Exactly! I'm with Nathan here. I have a 36" Tosh PF1, which I plan to "upgrade" to a PF2 or the new Panny. That's the thing, I know the judder will be sorted, but there's no getting around the Pal speed-up thing so that bugs me much more!

[nathan_silly]

Originally posted by figrin_dan
It doesn't?
Oh no, please explain.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=93898&highlight=toshiba+pal+progressive

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=94586

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56939&highlight=toshiba+pal+progressive

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90361&highlight=denon+pal+progressive

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89455&highlight=denon+pal+progressive

PAL progressive does work, just not as well as NTSC progressive. It seems to have more bugs.

[Jeff]

If you use a cheapy DVD player what do you expect? ;)

Nothing wrong with progressive PAL, it's simple case of US chip makers not putting in enough resources in getting PAL right. No issues here though, I pretty much only buy R2 now due to better PQ.

[Mark Haywood]

Originally posted by Jeff
No issues here though, I pretty much only buy R2 now due to better PQ.

If you use a cheapy DVD player what do you expect? :devil:

[figrin_dan]

Originally posted by Jeff
, it's simple case of US chip makers not putting in enough resources in getting PAL right.

So you wouldn't recommend a HK30?

[Jeff]

I know a lot of scalers and PS DVD players struggle with PAL, the person to ask would be Gordon. He should know which chips work the best, that should narrow it down a bit. I have an SDI DVD player for backup, but I use TheaterTek (PC software DVD) scaled high res and output to a Barco 1209s CRT projector.

[Darth_Fisto]

I don't see what the fuss is about PAL Speed up. I mean, I've just read this thread and someone is going to replace there ENTIRE PAL collection with NTSC discs. That's just really silly, but hey, if they have the money then good luck ;)

I mainly buy the best version, and if the R1 is the same as the R2, I'll get the R2. I notice NTSC judder, but I've learned to live with it. But I don't notice PAL speed up at all. I know people can detect the higher sound pitch, but I've never heard of anyone noticing people "moving quicker".... until now :p

[Mark Haywood]

I'm all alone and nobody cares :confused:

As an aside..............even my wife has noticed the speed-up in Ronin! I find it very interesting, actually! This speed-up actually affects the whole movie experience for me!! For instance.............

During the car chase in Ronin the "baddie" eventually puts his seat belt on as though "things are becoming serious"! And this after several crashes and explosions and shooting of guns! This to me is a well thought out scene and suggests to me that the director was trying to show the audience just how mad, single-minded, dedicated and professional the "baddie" really is. In the Pal version he appears to put the seatbelt on in a rush! The whole concept of his single-minded determination and professionalism is at once changed into anxiety, simply because he puts his seatbelt on too quickly and appears rushed!

This is of course one relatively minor scene, but multiplied throughout the whole movie it goes a long way in lessening the whole effect.

Of course, until recently, my ignorance was blissful...........but, alas, no more! ;)

[Family Guy]

So what sounds better in pal with the 4% speed up?
Dolby Digital or dts? Surely the bass isn't as "crisp", "tight" and "fast" if it's speede up by 4% no is it (words in brackets stolen from DVD reviewers section...dts titles only though...:laugh: )
According to all the dts fanboys, Dolby Digital must be even worse in Pal



















:rotfl:

[Jeff]

Sigsmung, What display and what player are you using?

[Mark Haywood]

Army Bloke - Just imagine how much better "Mask" would be if you had an NTSC DTS DVD :kisses:

Jeff - I have a Toshiba 36" PF1 and a Toshiba SD900 DVD player. They are connected with a Supra component cable.

And if you come back and tell me the speed up I'm seeing and hearing has nothing to do with Pal DVDs so that I've sold half my collection for next to nothing, for nothing....................I really will CRY :suicide:

[Jeff]

Thats OK, I was just checking, I have seen an effect on PC's that PAL can be speeded up to 30fps @60 Hz. Now thats FAST!!!! :)

[Mark Haywood]

I'm so relieved! ;) It really is quite strange..............now I see this speed-up thing I find it difficult to believe I never noticed it for all those years!

[Family Guy]

Originally posted by Sigismund

Jeff - I have a Toshiba 36" PF1 and a Toshiba SD900 DVD player. They are connected with a Supra component cable.


Now there's your problem you see...the supra cable is a pretty high end cable IIRC...what you need is a crap component cable, which, will in theory, slow the signal down. That should clear up your 4% speed up problem.
However, make sure you get a crap lead made in Europe otherwise it woll slow down your NYSC discs as well...don't want you complaining about NTSC slowdown now.....




















:rotfl: again...

[Daneel]

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Army Bloke

Sigismund: He puts his seatbelt on in a hurry, from 4% PAL speed up? I think it's in your mind. Do a double blind test and see if you can REALLY tell.

[Darth_Fisto]

Sigismund, I think a lot of it is in your mind. See, PAL may cut 4% off the NTSC running time, but it shouldn't be noticeable. Ok, if a film runs for 2 hours exactly, you lose 5 minutes. That's sounds a lot but look at it this way; If take you 25 seconds of NTSC and convert it to PAL, it will run for 24 seconds, no? (I'm crap at maths, so please correct me if I'm wrong ;) ).

Do you really think the human eye can detect 4% speed up on a shot that is maybe 1-2 seconds long? Very unlikely.
I know that the sound pitch difference is quite easily heard because many people have perfect pitch, but the eye works in a way that detecting "motion speed up" would be quite difficult.

You need someone to give you a test with a film you are not familiar with, but can get hold of the PAL and NTSC DVDs. Play it without sound, and then you will truly know if you can detect PAL speed up :)

[encaser]

This has got to read as one of the most rediculous threads of all time. Is Sigismund a grifter by any chance:rotfl:

[Mark Haywood]

OK all you cynics, you've done it, now. :devil:

Army Bloke - With your hearing impediment I don't think you'd see the speed-up ;)

Daneel - Even my old woman can see what I'm talking about! But, just in case you guys were right and I was losing my mind, my wife tested me (in as double blind a test as we could manage) and it was obvious as soon as I saw the Pal disc.........there were so many little movements that were just speeded-up !

Darth_Fisto - As above........it was immediately obvious. Perhaps it is you guys that should do the double blind test! There's no way I would have started this thread if I wasn't reasonably sure that what I see actually exists! :eek:

encaser - I'm not a grifter, I'm a house-husband! ;) Although if I were a grifter it would explain how I am able to see the "con" that we in Pal-land have to endure :devil:

Surely there must be someone out there that can see what I'm on about? Please?

[nathan_silly]

It's easy enough to check for yourself. Sample a song you're familiar with. Copy the file. Edit the second one and increase speed by 4%.

Run both, and listen to any difference.

[Jeff]

In a direct comparison you can easily tell the difference, but if you are simply watching a film for the first time you would be hard push to tell R1 from R2, espcially if the R1 was played on a CRT at 48Hz.