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Old 17-05-2003, 9:51 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Anyone been to the AV-Sales Showcase ?

Like it says..... anyone been ?? Seen anything interesting - esp. comparisons of PJs ??

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Old 17-05-2003, 10:51 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Yep, just got back, after going to see a VW12 at KrishAV as well.

Unfortunately the conditions were not ideal with too much ambient light which made it nigh on impossible to see the true potential (especially black levels) of all the pjs. However, the conditions were the same for all so you could still draw conclusions from comparison.

Other than that really well setup with the same source feeding every pj and plasma via, I understand, a load of Extron boxes.

Very interesting when you see 6 pjs all side by side projecting onto the same screen size (although all separate screens). They were showing The Matrix, Toy Story, a BBC mammals documentary (not sure which) and they had a load of other DVDs there but these were the only ones I saw.

For what it's worth my take on each of them was...

Z1 - nice brightness but shame about the screen door. And this was on a small screen (they were either 5' or 6' wide). Unfortunately it was very noticeable in comparison to the others.

Epson TS10 - Better than the Z1 in the screen door department although the colours did not look so vibrant.

Epson TW100 - Probably the best colours and detail of the bunch but the vertical banding was evident as was a small amount of pixel structure. very nice looking image though with plenty of brightness even in the ambient light conditions. Blacks didn't look at all bad either.

NEC HT1000 - Without a shadow of a doubt the best picture out of all of them by quite a way. Absolutely no pixel artifacts, screen door, banding or anything even when you were within 3 ft of the screen. The smoothest picture of the lot (although some video noise was evident) and I think starting to rival lower end CRTs. Fantastic colours as well although maybe a tad dimmer than the TW100 but more than made up for with the beautifully smooth and artefcat free image. This would certainly be my choice of all the digital pjs there (and tbh is not far behind the MT8 which I had on demo for a few days last week). Absolutely stunning and if anyopne is thinking of one do not let the 4:3 panel put you off because if you do you will be discounting what must be the best sub £5k pj currently available. Fantastic blacks as well that would undoubtedly be even better in a light controlled environment.

Toshiba MT5 - Another very nice image with no evident screen door or pixel structure at all. Not as good blacks as the HT1000 and slightly more washed out looking but another cracking pj.

Panasonic AE300 - A fantastic image with plenty of colour and yes, the smoothscreen technology definitely works. Slight evidence of pixel structure but far less than the Z1 and in the sub £2k band I think the winner without a doubt.

If I had to rate them in order I would do so like this

1st - NEC HT1000 (by a fair margin) *
2nd - Epson TW100
3rd - Toshiba MT5 *
4th - Panasonic AE300
5th - Sanyo Z1
6th - Epson TS10

* Note - these are DLP pjs and rainbows were eveident on certain scenes with both pjs although with the HT1000 they were not at all distracting for me when I just watched the picture as opposed to flitting side to side to do comparisons.

Just my subjective opinion of course


Room for improvement? As feedback to Andrew and the team I think any future events would be well served by having a dedicated (small) room set up with full blackout and also a full on DD/DTS/7.1 sound system so serious purchasers could sit and watch their chosen pj (remove it from the main stands and plug it in for 15-20 minutes) in true cinema style. It's amazing how 'boring' the picture looks without sound.

News: I was informed by one of the stand reps that the new Sanyo Z2 is due out next month. It apparently contains a W-XGA panel, will have similar styling and be priced slightly above the current Z1. Also, in September, a Sanyo DLP model is due to be launched. No intended specs or pricing given.

And finally, a BIG thankyou to Andrew and his team for setting up this event. I truly hope they introduce the home cinema experience to many more people and get plenty of business from it. They deserve it.

PS Anyone looking at purchasing a new WS TV, check out the Z1 or AE300 before you do. For the same money you can have the REAL home cinema experience

PPS: The VW12 was a big disappointment. Image about on par with the TW100 although slightly less screen door, lots of video noise and, for me, the fan would drive me nuts. A less than inaudible constant droning. Shame. Choose a HT1000 or MT8 instead. Or better still go CRT

Last edited by Messiah; 17-05-2003 at 11:34 PM.
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Old 17-05-2003, 11:09 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I went as well!
Arrived home about 7.00pm
Just having something to eat and i will post some pics etc
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Old 17-05-2003, 11:14 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Picture one shows my wife Amanda and Messiah getting comfy on the Laz-z-boys!
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Old 17-05-2003, 11:15 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Picture shows general layout etc
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Old 17-05-2003, 11:16 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Same picture again without flash to show how much ambient light was about
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Old 17-05-2003, 11:17 PM   #7 (permalink)
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This shows how the screens were setup
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Old 17-05-2003, 11:18 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Finally...
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Old 17-05-2003, 11:36 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Ive just got back and concur with every thing Messiah says above. would add from a service point of view no hard sell in fact quite the opposite the guy by the Pt-ae300 didnt seem to be able to answer any tecnical questions he didnt even know the screen sizes they were using ( I later discovered a large sticker on most screens saying 69 inches - not a difficult number to remember) They were alos offering about 5% discount on web prices but still expensive. Shame they didnt have a XV-Z91
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Old 18-05-2003, 12:32 AM   #10 (permalink)
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We had a great day out, and had a fantastic meal a "The cross Keys" pub!
I echo Neils (Messiah) points about the ambient light preventing serious reviewing, but all credit to both Andrew and Liam for at least trying.
The news is if this proves a success, they will be willing to tour around the country giving customers a try before you buy type demo!
This is good news because the main complaint from people dipping their toe in the market is lack of demo facilities.

Please note, most of the PJ's were set "out of the box", so with more time maybe a better picture could be obtained.

I will start of with the Epson TS10:
Never even knew this existed before today, so i don't know how much it costs etc.
Boring Beige/white case, but looked very well built.
I thought it was almost identical to the Z1 in the picture stakes, except to say the colours didn't seem as saturated. So i will skip any further comments.

Sanyo Z1:
Smart black and silver case.
Image was bright and punchy, with well saturated colours. Struggled to give convincing images due to low resolution panel plus screendoor. Don't get me wrong for it's budget price these things are to be expected. I would rate it above the AE100 for example, but although highly saturated, the colours didn't look "real".
As with most LCD there was much vertical streaking/banding on the light scenes, but viewed from an appropriate distance the image did look good.
Couldn't judge the black level as it was too near the door.
I feel this PJ just needed some careful setting up and a slight defocusing to make it a great budget projector.

Panasonic AE300:
I had mixed feelings about this projector!
I was demo-ing this one for a friend, so was trying to see how black the blacks were.
This projector was in the darkest part of the room, so a slight greyness to the blacks was noticable.
The projector was pushing blue, so maybe this was what i was viewing.
Considering this PJ is selling in the budget range, it stood up well to the pricer Epson TW100!
The Micro Lense array really did reduce the screendoor to about the same as the TW100, without noticable softening of the image.
But it didn't have the detail level being shown by the TW100.
Colours weren't as "in your face" as some LCDs, but after watching a range of material, it endeared itself to me.
I would be happy to install this projector in my freinds budget install.
Again i feel the PJ has more to offer with some tweaking.

Epson TW100:
Case same as the TS10.
This PJ seemed to change my mind, every time they changed the film!
I do think this PJ is more fussy what you show on it, ie garbage in garbage out. Or maybe the type of film source, brings out the best and worse.
Detail levels on this machine were very high, confirming the above statement maybe!
Colours seemed fine on the whole, and i think it needed a darker room to shows it's ermm "true colours"..... sorry!
Biggest let down was screendoor+vertical streaks. On a projector in this price range i would expect better. As i mentioned above the AE300 was similar but that PJ costs a lot less.
I think this PJ just needs a price reduction.

Toshiba MT5:
I don't like Toshiba anymore after grief with a TV, so will not help sell any of their products...

NEC HT1000:
Case is a bit boring in white/beige, but looks very very well built.
I can't tell you if this Pj was the quietest there, but in high and low lamp mode it was really quiet!
Screendoor = Nil (from any sensible distance)
Vertcal banding/streaking = Nil
The above two factors are very important to picture quality, and in their absence it left a stunning picture!
Very smooth and film like, in fact nothing like normal digital pictures!
The black level from what i could tell compaired to the other projectors looked very low.

There are a few negatives i must point out, but compaired to the LCD niggle pale in comparison.
Rainbows are still present, but i am very sensative to them. In fact Amanda saw them for the first time!
But after demo-ing for a while i became aware that i hadn't seen any!
Just shows that i look for them etc
There was also some dithering in the backgrounds and on fast moving objects, but to be honest it was more than acceptable.
The last point was image brightness. Since this PJ is native 4.3, it loses a lot of brightness when veiwing 16.9 (2.35-1) material.
So in lower power mode with the "Iris" shut i feel you might need total blackout conditions!
Overall i think the HT1000 is a stunning machine and well worth every penny. Even with the slight rainbows/dithering gives a truely cinematic image.
I very much would like to see this PJ again in a better enviroment, on a larger screen.

I often get asked if digital Pjs are getting closer to CRT PJs, and the answer with the HT1000 is yes...... Closer but not there yet.

The main points about a CRT image is the total lack of Image!
Ie the image is so much more vibrant and alive, nevermind image depth and 3Dness.
A well setup CRT with good tubes and lenses can give sharp highly detailed image, just as much as a cheapo poorly setup CRT can give a soft bland/dark image.
So i will be sticking with CRT for the time being!

I asked Neil to come with me and view the plasmas, as everytime i review them i always come up with the Panasonic 42 as the best.
There is a list on av-sales.com site what plasmas are on offer.
After having a fresh look at what's on offer i still mantain the Panasonic it still tops.
But i would ask Neil to fill in with his thoughts on what looked the best, as he has the sharp-PIoneer clone.

Right thats it!
I'm having a beer and maybe some sleep as it been a couple of days now!
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Last edited by Paul D; 18-05-2003 at 12:39 AM.
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Old 18-05-2003, 12:45 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Just a quick screenshot requested by Messiah concerning detail levels and lack of "image" in a CRT picture etc.
Picture taken witha a standard 35mm instant camera and then scanned with an Umax flatbed scanner.
Projector BarcoData 808s (17,500 hours on chassis)
Quadscan Elite scaler
Pioneer 737 DVD player
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Film CTHD
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Old 18-05-2003, 1:38 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by fulabeer
But i would ask Neil to fill in with his thoughts on what looked the best, as he has the sharp-PIoneer clone.
Well, I have to say that the Panasonic certainly looked a better picture at the show. Better colours, whites were whiter, blacks were blacker. But......

I didn't like, and couldn't live with the screen flicker on the Panasonic. Don't know what it was but the Pioneer was rock solid, as mine is.

I have setup my plasma with Avia and my whites are white and blacks are black and I love my screen even after seeing the Panasonic today

My guess is that the default factory setup is better on the Panasonic than the Pioneer and as the AV-Sales guys had not tweaked them then that would explain why. Put it this way, I would not swap my Pioneer clone (Sharp) for a Panasonic but if the Panasonic had not had the screen flicker I would have bought it I didn't know the Pioneer needed tweaking (as many potential purchasers wouldn't)

Oh, and I was very surprised by how good the Relisys plasma looked considering it is half the price of the Pioneer. Wow!
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Old 18-05-2003, 1:42 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Great reading, well I cant buy NEC. 75% of what I watch will be DVD,s and with the quality going less in that mode isnt worth me buying that(brightness-important to me for quality).
Looking more like Panasonic, good prioce and good quality for the price. Cant understand if epson is so much dearer it must have better qualities than that. Do you think as said that the true quality was not set up with each projector?
Panasonic or Epson?
I will have to decide one day, thats enough for another day, will I ever buy one.

All the best,
Phill
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Old 18-05-2003, 1:57 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Phil

Excuse me saying this but you will be absolutely bonkers if you buy the Epson or Panny over the NEC. I'm not sure what you mean about the qualkity being less for DVDs. Less than what?

The resolution is still higher than the res of the DVD and in fact for PAL discs it matches the DVD res perfectly 576 horizontal lines.

The HT1000 does not reduce the quality of the film in any way, it's just that it only uses the 16:9 portion of the panel.

No different than if the HS10 had a 1366 x 1018 (4:3 panel) but only used 1366 x 768 to display 16:9 DVDs.

Does this teherfore mean that you would not buy a 16:9 panel pj to watcgh 2.35:1 films cos that will work in the same way in that not all the panel will be used. Had they stuck a 1024 x 576 (16:9) panel in the NEC would you have bought it then.

I say again that if you buy the Panny or Epson over the NEC then you will be the loser as you will end up watching a poorer picture by far. Don't go by specs, go and see one and I guarantee you will buy one.
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Old 18-05-2003, 2:12 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Neil and Paul,

Brilliant review

Your findings on the Z1 Vs. AE300 are interesting, considering that they both sport similar panel sizes it would appear that the Panny "Smoothscreen" technology makes a significant difference.

Also intrigued by the classification of the HT1000 - I've never seen dlp so can't make judgements about rainbows, but I think having a look at one of these has to be on the "upgrade-path" menu.

Seems like I missed a great chance to see a lot of kit in one place - Vexorg had planned a quick "hop" to the Uk and I had intended to tag along for fun.... Family committments meant staying at home - 8 year old daughter had a big day today !!!!!!

Once again, Thanks a million for such excellent descriptions, Paul, that screenshot is mouth-watering !!!!!


All the best,


Sean G.
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