Are Freesat boxes ever likely to include a cam slot? [Archive]

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rodd1000

26-04-2008, 10:26 AM

As the title says, it would be nice to have the flexibilty to add a dragon or similar cam but is it likely to happen at some point or will they go down the Freesat only route, the same as Sky?

Cheers

nehalem

26-04-2008, 11:14 AM

Extremely unlikely is my understanding.

Starburst

26-04-2008, 11:39 AM

Setanta have been reported as lobbying for a CI slot to be included which it should have been from day1 but there is nothing stopping any of the manufacturers from added functions beyond the basic spec although I suspect unless fully supported PAY channels would have issues getting access to the EPG.

secretsquirrels

26-04-2008, 12:24 PM

rodd1000

26-04-2008, 12:37 PM

Ah well.. Thanks very much for the information anyways.:smashin:

Stephen Neal

26-04-2008, 2:30 PM

Hi,

The BBC trust when it gave the go-ahead to Freesat stated freesat/itv was not allowed to make money from the freesat platform and the whole project is on a not for profit basis.

So the answer is no!

sorry m8.

SS.

So are you saying that freesat won't grant freesat licensing to manufacturers who submit a receiver/PVR for certification that includes a CI slot for a CAM - even if it meets all the freesat licensing requirements?

I guess any encrypted channels wouldn't be present in the freesat EPG anyway - but I know some people were hoping for a multi-satellite friendly freesat box, or a freesat EPG+MHEG5 engine to be addded to an existing CI-slot equipped model, to allow freesat viewing of Astra2/Eurobird, but also a second LNB (or steerable dish) to be pointed at the pay-TV services on Astra 1, Hotbird, Thor etc. (Particularly ex-pats...)

Neil Watson

27-04-2008, 7:06 AM

I would think they would say no as from their perspective they want it not for profit and so CAM slot is definately not required. Allowing one opens the door for pressure to be applied to allow pay channels to be added to Freesat epg?

I would also think this is why something like the hauppage card won't get a license as its too open at present?

DaveCheltenham

27-04-2008, 8:32 AM

rodd1000 - I cannot see the advantage as there is already a pay-tv platform with an EPG run by Sky.

The advantage to not having a pay-tv slot, is that there are likely to be more channels that would otherwise would have been the case. The Sky compared to Freeview platforms is an example to this.

Having a cam slot can be the thin end of the wedge with pay-tv channels trying to take over the platform with things like subsidized boxes etc.. It must be a great advantage to be able to say the platform is completely Free-To-Air.

Regards

davemurgatroyd2

27-04-2008, 12:24 PM

It is strongly rumoured that the Humax freesat HD PVR will include both a CI slot and DiSEqC capability from a source within Humax.

There is nothing whatsoever in the freesat spec/licensing to forbid the provision of either in a receiver contrary to the expectations posted above. This will give the box capabilities beyond just using it on 28.2 which is unlikely to have much in the way of HD programming FTA for a couple of years.

Stephen Neal

27-04-2008, 5:13 PM

I would think they would say no as from their perspective they want it not for profit and so CAM slot is definately not required.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the CI slot should be mandated - more they are querying if any manufacturers will add freesat compliance to a receiver which also has a CI. Such a feature would be very popular with UK based multi-satellite enthusiasts - many of whom currently have to have a Sky receiver alongside their multi-sat receiver to be able to use the UK EPG and interactive services.

A CI along with Diseqc support would allow this - as well as presumably being popular with households who have multi-LNB or motorised systems to watch non-UK channels alongside UK FTA stuff.

Allowing one opens the door for pressure to be applied to allow pay channels to be added to Freesat epg?

Not really - it allows the boxes to work with more than one satellite - allowing you to use the same receiver to legally subscribe to non-UK ex-pat services - such as SVT Europe (for Swedish ex-pats) etc.

I don't think people should read CI support as a "freesat to carry encrypted stuff" thin end of the wedge - more a way of adding support to the freesat platform to existing receiver implementations?

Presumably some manufacturers won't be designing new receivers from scratch for freesat - some will just be writing new software for existing platforms? Some of these may have Diseqc and CI slots?

I would also think this is why something like the hauppage card won't get a license as its too open at present?

Nothing to do with open-ness - more the fact that the Hauppauge doesn't support the EPG or MHEG5 services - so wouldn't pass freesat licensing at the moment. There may also be an issue with how the Hauppauge would allow network access - all the freesat boxes have Ethernet sockets I believe?

Stephen Neal

27-04-2008, 5:16 PM

It is strongly rumoured that the Humax freesat HD PVR will include both a CI slot and DiSEqC capability from a source within Humax.

Yep - presumably they are just adding freesat software to an existing hardware platform?

There is nothing whatsoever in the freesat spec/licensing to forbid the provision of either in a receiver contrary to the expectations posted above. This will give the box capabilities beyond just using it on 28.2 which is unlikely to have much in the way of HD programming FTA for a couple of years.

I'd have thought that for full freesat PVR support you'd need to be aimed permanently at 28.2 wouldn't you? How else would you be guaranteed to receive the "now playing" EIT triggers broadcast on the EPG streams on each transponder if you weren't pointing at 28.2? (My understanding is that freesat will work like freeview playback in this regard?)

secretsquirrels

27-04-2008, 5:17 PM

QUESTION=Are Freesat boxes ever likely to include a cam slot?
As the title says, it would be nice to have the flexibilty to add a dragon or similar cam but is it likely to happen at some point or will they go down the Freesat only route, the same as Sky?

MY ANSWER=Hi,

The BBC trust when it gave the go-ahead to Freesat stated freesat/itv was not allowed to make money from the freesat platform and the whole project is on a not for profit basis.

So the answer is no!

sorry m8.
****************
So are you saying that freesat won't grant freesat licensing to manufacturers who submit a receiver/PVR for certification that includes a CI slot for a CAM - even if it meets all the freesat licensing requirements?

I guess any encrypted channels wouldn't be present in the freesat EPG anyway - but I know some people were hoping for a multi-satellite friendly freesat box, or a freesat EPG+MHEG5 engine to be addded to an existing CI-slot equipped model, to allow freesat viewing of Astra2/Eurobird, but also a second LNB (or steerable dish) to be pointed at the pay-TV services on Astra 1, Hotbird, Thor etc. (Particularly ex-pats...)
My answer=
Stephen Neal; are you for real???
I answered the first post with a truthful answer so you must think it's wrong!
So answer the man in the negative instead of hijacking me!
Oh! you cant do that because that would make you wrong, Oh! you have already said that by asking me the question anyway.
Grow up man!

Stephen Neal

27-04-2008, 5:22 PM

rodd1000 - I cannot see the advantage as there is already a pay-tv platform with an EPG run by Sky.

I think that there is a real advantage for UK purchasers of multi-satellite receivers.

If you have a CI slot for a CAM on a multi-satellite capable freesat receiver then you have the best of both worlds. A decent EPG and interactive services on freesat services at 28.2, but also the ability to watch pay-TV on other satellites.

I don't think a freesat receiver having a CI slot is advocating encryption of services on the freesat platform - rather it is adding freesat functionality to an existing multisatellite receiver application?

How you'd integrate freesat and non-freesat channels would be interesting - does anyone know what the freesat EPG channel numbering scheme will be?

fernandez

27-04-2008, 5:52 PM

I think that there is a real advantage for UK purchasers of multi-satellite receivers.

If you have a CI slot for a CAM on a multi-satellite capable freesat receiver then you have the best of both worlds. A decent EPG and interactive services on freesat services at 28.2, but also the ability to watch pay-TV on other satellites.

TBH I doubt if the mass market is interested in a multi-satellite receivers and , in any event, subscribing (legally in the UK) to European pay-TV services is expensive and often difficult.

There will always be a market for multi-satellite receivers with CAM slots/DiSEqC and so on but I don't think that Freesat (and manufacturers initially) view this as a priority

CreweAlexRock

27-04-2008, 7:28 PM

Does this mean Setanta will not be available? I was kinda hoping it would be :(

BrianMc

27-04-2008, 8:08 PM

Does this mean Setanta will not be available? I was kinda hoping it would be :(
It means exactly this! It can, of course, be added to FreesatFromSky smartcards (or ex-subscription) but still needs a Sky Digibox.

secretsquirrels

27-04-2008, 8:11 PM

Does this mean Setanta will not be available? I was kinda hoping it would be :(

Very sorry m8,:thumbsdow
There will never be a cam or card slot on any Freesat box ever!

The Freesat service will be free for ever!

Don't listen to anyone who says on here otherwise just wait until its launched give Freesat a bell or ask Setanta direct, they may tell you why not and if they do please post the reply here as I can't wait to see the reactions?

Best Regards,

SS

Stephen Neal

27-04-2008, 8:48 PM

TBH I doubt if the mass market is interested in a multi-satellite receivers and , in any event, subscribing (legally in the UK) to European pay-TV services is expensive and often difficult.

Yep - though there are quite a few legal ex-pat packages you can subscribe to - JSTV (Japanese Satellite Television) and SVT Europe (Best of Swedish state broadcaster) are two that instantly spring to mind.

Not mass market - and not something you would design from scratch. However it may well be that some manufacturers decide it is easier to add freesat functionality to an existing receiver design - that may well have a CI slot.

There will always be a market for multi-satellite receivers with CAM slots/DiSEqC and so on but I don't think that Freesat (and manufacturers initially) view this as a priority

What have freesat got to do with it?

Aren't they like freeview - just an organisation that charges manufacturers to test their receivers and ensure that they are fully compatible with their service prior to granting them the rights to using the freesat name and logo in their marketing?

AIUI freesat don't commission manufacturers to make receivers - so what freesat see, or don't see, as a priority can only really impact on their service (EPG, post-code mapping, interactive services etc.), not the hardware sold for it.

freesat isn't a closed-operation like Sky or ON/ITVDigital was - it is a much more open platform like Freeview.

I think it could be interesting to see what manufacturers do. I'd have thought that any manufacturer aiming a multisatellite box at the UK would be sensibly considering whether freesat functionality would be desirable for UK buyers...

Starburst

27-04-2008, 8:56 PM

Don't listen to anyone who says on here otherwise just wait until its launched give Freesat a bell or ask Setanta direct, they may tell you why not and if they do please post the reply here as I can't wait to see the reactions?

I don't think anyone on this thread has said Freesat hardware will support a CI slot for a third part CAM module so I don't think we really need the attitude:(

The problem with public forums is that anyone can say anything so if you want to add credibility then posting a link to the BBC Trust press releases in regards to the limitations of the BBC in the Freesat consortium would clarify things.

At this time there is no Freesat hardware with a CI slot, Setanta know this and no one in this thread has said any different.

Bottom line I think it is highly ironic and a step backwards to launch a Dsat platform that doesn't mandate a CI slot, Freeview boxes have them and it's an EU mandate for iDTV's above a certain size.

secretsquirrels

27-04-2008, 9:27 PM

I don't think we really need the attitude

You really think it's attitude? Well, you may be right!:rolleyes: and you may be wrong!:nono:

One of the main conditions for the Freesat HD digital box is that it will have neither card slot or cam slot ever.

As this is a free speaking board, I sign off with attitude after once again telling the truth, but then again maybe I'm telling porkies about my attitude also.
The bottom line is:
Am I bovered?

Starburst

27-04-2008, 9:45 PM

You really think it's attitude? Well, you may be right!:rolleyes: and you may be wrong!:nono:

One of the main conditions for the Freesat HD digital box is that it will have neither card slot or cam slot ever.

As this is a free speaking board, I sign off with attitude after once again telling the truth, but then again maybe I'm telling porkies about my attitude also.
The bottom line is:
Am I bovered?

Yes I think your posts on this thread dismiss others in a very juvenile fashion who basically have not disagreed with your basic information.

In terms of what the BBC can do within Freesat can be simply clarified by offering up links to the press releases of the Trust, a simple act on your part which helps everyone reading this thread.

Since you became a member of the AVF and chose to offer information to answer a question or expand on previous posts then yes I think you are bothered.

secretsquirrels

27-04-2008, 10:10 PM

Starburst,
you seem to have completely misunderstood my threads.
A question is asked, IF I KNOW THE ANSWER, I CONTRIBUTE.
****
You have said in post three;
Setanta have been reported as lobbying for a CI slot to be included which it should have been from day1 but there is nothing stopping any of the manufacturers from added functions beyond the basic spec although I suspect unless fully supported PAY channels would have issues getting access to the EPG.
The idea that the Freesat box with either a card or a cam fitted was always going to be a non-starter simply because the BBC/ITV joint venture would NEVER EVER have gotten past the BBC Trust. One of the main conditions for the sanction of the BBC/ITV was it must remain free with no card or cam slot the reasoning for this has remained grey simply because the BBC/ITV could not interfere with existing TV providers.
What happens in the future is neither here nor there as the Freesat boxes are destined not have card slots or cam slots or they will be breaking the terms agreed by the BBC Trust.
I'll finish by saying that unless you can have a balanced and TRUTHFUL debate the point of debate in the first place is lost. I do not wish to press anybody into my beliefs as they are at liberty to make their own minds up if I lie or tell the truth.
As far as pdf's are concerned they are all in the Google search engine for everybody to find and this is not attitude but common knowledge.
:)

Stephen Neal

28-04-2008, 10:12 AM

You have said in post three;
Setanta have been reported as lobbying for a CI slot to be included which it should have been from day1 but there is nothing stopping any of the manufacturers from added functions beyond the basic spec although I suspect unless fully supported PAY channels would have issues getting access to the EPG.

I can see why Setanta wanted a mandated CI slot, and I can see why the freesat team would not.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that a freesat receiver will have a mandated CI slot - the receivers "in the wild" demonstrate that they don't.

I agree that it is also unlikely that any encrypted services would be granted access to the freesat EPG.

The idea that the Freesat box with either a card or a cam fitted was always going to be a non-starter simply because the BBC/ITV joint venture would NEVER EVER have gotten past the BBC Trust.

What has what a receiver manufacturer choses to implement in their hardware got to do with the BBC Trust? The BBC Trust and freesat haven't directly commissioned receivers from manufacturers.

The BBC Trust has approved the BBC involvement in freesat.

freesat have created a minimum receiver standard, and provide testing and licensing of receivers to ensure any box with the freesat logo provides the minimum functionality required, allowing the consumer to purchase with confidence.

Are you saying that a receiver that is otherwise entirely freesat compliant - and passes freesat licensing would have freesat licensing withheld because it contained a CI slot? I suspect lawyers would have an interesting time arguing that case - surely it is anti-competitive - particularly as CI slots are mandated in other goods (such as IDTVs)

I'd be interested to know if the freesat licensing requirements actively preclude CI slots - as I would be interested to know if that is legally supportable.

One of the main conditions for the sanction of the BBC/ITV was it must remain free with no card or cam slot the reasoning for this has remained grey simply because the BBC/ITV could not interfere with existing TV providers.

That is absolutely true of the BROADCASTS on the freesat platform - they have to be received with no Conditional Access - and no freesat broadcast should require conditional access.

This DOESN'T equate to "no freesat receiver can offer conditional access" - as there are perfectly valid reasons for a receiver to receive freesat AND other platforms (particularly those aimed at expats living in the UK)

What happens in the future is neither here nor there as the Freesat boxes are destined not have card slots or cam slots or they will be breaking the terms agreed by the BBC Trust.

You seem to think that freesat are making the boxes. They aren't.

You seem to be confusing the BBC Trust approval of the service - which is the broadcasts, the support of the EPG and interactive functionality etc. - which will obviously remain Conditional Access-free - and the freesat licensing of receivers. The latter would probably be on dodgy ground if they started refusing licences to boxes with CI slots that were otherwise 100% compliant.

I'll finish by saying that unless you can have a balanced and TRUTHFUL debate the point of debate in the first place is lost. I do not wish to press anybody into my beliefs as they are at liberty to make their own minds up if I lie or tell the truth.
As far as pdf's are concerned they are all in the Google search engine for everybody to find and this is not attitude but common knowledge.
:)

Can you quote the bits of the freesat licensing agreement that actively states that inclusion of a CI slot will ensure the receiver cannot be freesat licensed?

I'm not talking about any discussion of freesat broadcasts not requiring a CAM - that is not the point of detail being asked about here.

The basic nub is - can a multisatellite receiver with CI slots also be freesat licensed? And if not, why not?

rodd1000

28-04-2008, 10:29 AM

My interest in a CI slot is exactly that, to allow the flexibility of capturing other satellites which may contain HD content. I'm not in the slightest bit interested in Sky.

secretsquirrels

28-04-2008, 10:46 AM

mrbleu

28-04-2008, 11:11 AM

This is my own personal slant on how the cam scenario reads to me. As Sky has continually refused to release a cam for their boxes and the BBC/ITV will have complete control of their platform metadata the control is kept within set bounds.
A simple example is the BBC 3 logo on Freesat, this does not appear on Sky or Freeview.

Which BBC3 Logo is this?

This is from the BBC commissioning guidelines (http://www.bbc.co.uk/commissioning/tvbranding/restrictions.shtml).

"On BBC THREE, BBC FOUR, CBeebies and The CBBC Channel there will be at least one DOG (Digitally Originated Graphic) on screen throughout the transmission of the show* (*with the exception of movies and performance on BBC FOUR and only in exceptional circumstances on BBC THREE)"

davemurgatroyd2

28-04-2008, 2:51 PM

QUESTION=
MY ANSWER=
Quote:
Hi,

The BBC trust when it gave the go-ahead to Freesat stated freesat/itv was not allowed to make money from the freesat platform and the whole project is on a not for profit basis.

So the answer is no!

sorry m8.

****************

What on earth has the provision of a CI slot to do with the not for profit status of freesat. The only financial returns to the freesat consortium are the fees for EPG placement from broadcasters (and possibly licensing fees to use the freesat brand name from manufacturers). Pray tell how the presence of a CI slot affects that.

davemurgatroyd2

28-04-2008, 3:07 PM

davemurgatroyd2

29-04-2008, 10:20 AM

A simple example is the BBC 3 logo on Freesat, this does not appear on Sky or Freeview.

Is this the supposed logo you have printed on your website pictures as BBC3 which is in fact BBCi 3/3 screen as can be viewed and tuned to on virtually any FTA box. Here (labelled as "Freesat has BBC3")
http://www.gufsat.com/GRUNDIG_GUFSAT_HD_01_TV_PICTURE_GALLERY.htm

Sky boxes will not tune it in BUT will display it using the press red options when it is actually broadcasting something. You really do need to learn a little more about the whole satellite scene before you make such sweeping statements along with your claims for encryption (because E4 shows as encrypted) are fast losing you any credibility you originally had along with your attitude when challenged on your statements (which IIRC got you banned from another forum). Also please note your picture "Freesat has special features" - these are found on virtually all FTA receivers.

Thank you anyway for posting the pictures but please learn a little more about it.

shadows

29-04-2008, 3:15 PM

if you start putting cams in and pay tv it would nt be freesat ,then you can put patchs in and get free pay tv and open up another can or worms i dont think it will ever go down that road

Starburst

29-04-2008, 3:27 PM

if you start putting cams in and pay tv it would nt be freesat ,then you can put patchs in and get free pay tv and open up another can or worms i dont think it will ever go down that road

There would be no embedded CAM just the provision of a functional CI slot, you know like the rest of the EU have had for years:)

Imagine a situation where a few channels got really annoyed with SKY dropping subscription returns and signed a deal to use another encryption system and put together a package which has sports/entertainment and music at a fraction of the price of a single SKY MIX?
It is that possibility that Freesat has put a knife into by not mandating a CI slot just as Freeview has and iDTV's have.

shadows

29-04-2008, 3:36 PM

There would be no embedded CAM just the provision of a functional CI slot, you know like the rest of the EU have had for years:)

Imagine a situation where a few channels got really annoyed with SKY dropping subscription returns and signed a deal to use another encryption system and put together a package which has sports/entertainment and music at a fraction of the price of a single SKY MIX?
It is that possibility that Freesat has put a knife into by not mandating a CI slot just as Freeview has and iDTV's have.

but that takes away the name freesat, i know what your saying though here in italy you can go into a shop buy a card for 5 euro and watch any italian football match you want, imagine that in the uk s
ly would be right out of pocket

Starburst

29-04-2008, 4:52 PM

but that takes away the name freesat, i know what your saying though here in italy you can go into a shop buy a card for 5 euro and watch any italian football match you want, imagine that in the uk s
ly would be right out of pocket

The inclusion of a CI slot in Freeview boxes and subsequent use by Setanta and TUTV didn't dent the take up of Freeview and with less congestion on satellite a viable second PAY platform whose EPG was still biased towards a FTA lineup and without the restrictions of the SKY EPG (removing PAY channels from freesatfromsky use etc) then I don't think there would be any harm.

Even if such a CI slot was mandated and the EPG capable of adding PAY channels I doubt any broadcaster would be interested until it was in a million homes at least and that could be a couple of years away anyway.

mrbleu

07-05-2008, 5:05 PM

Just to put this thread to bed...

Emma Scott, the managing director of Freesat, said that while the service currently had no capability to offer subscription services it would be "considered in the future".

Media Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/may/06/bbc.itv1)

If the Humax PVR box comes with a CI slot, then you can bet Setanta will fill the gap :)

Jonstone

07-05-2008, 7:32 PM

Just to put this thread to bed...

Media Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/may/06/bbc.itv1)

If the Humax PVR box comes with a CI slot, then you can bet Setanta will fill the gap :)

It may well be possible at some time in the future but not whilst any BBC money is being used to fund the platform, sky would have a field day in the courts if a pay subscription service competing with them was setup on a platform being subsidised by the BBC.

Once freesat is established and the BBC is no longer required to help with funding/publicising then maybe it is possible but not until then

freeman

07-05-2008, 7:53 PM

Once freesat is established and the BBC is no longer required to help with funding/publicising then maybe it is possible but not until then

:eek: The bbc wanted to start Freesat to compete with Sky :nono: There was no need for it or the £3 million of the tv tax money to be pumped into it (annually )FreesatfromSky could have done the job with no extra cost to the taxpayer ,but what do these :censored: socialists care it's not their money :mad:

davemurgatroyd2

07-05-2008, 8:00 PM

It may well be possible at some time in the future but not whilst any BBC money is being used to fund the platform, sky would have a field day in the courts if a pay subscription service competing with them was setup on a platform being subsidised by the BBC.

Once freesat is established and the BBC is no longer required to help with funding/publicising then maybe it is possible but not until then

But it need not be set up on their platform - the now available Humax HD box has the ability to add other channels and to use DiSEqC switching to enable use of motorised dishes or fixed dishes with multiple lnbs - something NOT in the freesat spec although their box toatally complies with the freesat spec. If the Alba boxes do not also allow the addition of other channels then they are breaking the EU directives which stipulate that any closed platform receivers must allow all FTA channels to be viewed on the satellite they are designed to work on.

Humax have strongly intimated that a CI slot will be present on the forthcoming PVR confirming also there is nothung within the freesat specification to prevent such inclusion.

BrianMc

07-05-2008, 8:18 PM

davemurgatroyd2

07-05-2008, 9:57 PM

I thought that most of these Humax features were turned off when the STB is set to "Freesat mode" - which is the only one where the EPG is active!

So what, that is the same as virtually any non Sky or non freesat box, you can still view the channels and the freesat spec does not forbid the possible future addition of other EPG processing (such as the standard DVB S EPG systems used on other satellites e.g Astra 1 at 19.2 where many stations offer up to a 7 day EPG) as long as the box also complies with the freesat spec as well. Although freesat is not an open platform it is also not as restricted a closed system as Sky.

Jonstone

07-05-2008, 10:40 PM

But it need not be set up on their platform - the now available Humax HD box has the ability to add other channels and to use DiSEqC switching to enable use of motorised dishes or fixed dishes with multiple lnbs - something NOT in the freesat spec although their box toatally complies with the freesat spec. If the Alba boxes do not also allow the addition of other channels then they are breaking the EU directives which stipulate that any closed platform receivers must allow all FTA channels to be viewed on the satellite they are designed to work on.

Humax have strongly intimated that a CI slot will be present on the forthcoming PVR confirming also there is nothung within the freesat specification to prevent such inclusion.

I was commenting on the quote from the managing director of freesat who suggested pay subscription tv may be available over the freesat platform, i.e. included in the freesat epg which I do not believe to be possible whilst the bbc is part funding it.

Yes I agree there is nothing to stop a box that can access freesat and other pay services but these would not be part of the freesat epg and have nothing to do with them

mrbleu

08-05-2008, 8:11 AM

I was commenting on the quote from the managing director of freesat who suggested pay subscription tv may be available over the freesat platform, i.e. included in the freesat epg which I do not believe to be possible whilst the bbc is part funding it.

Yes I agree there is nothing to stop a box that can access freesat and other pay services but these would not be part of the freesat epg and have nothing to do with them

Why not?

The Freeview EPG includes TopUp TV and Setanta, and Freeview was setup in the same way as freesat, the only difference being Freeview is part owned by Sky...

I can't imagine the Beeb offering pay services via freesat, but AFAIK there is nothing to stop second tier payTV broadcasters like Setanta, TopUp, Virgin, joining freesat, if CI modules were included on future receivers (as they are an many Freeview boxes). However at the moment, the freesat USP is a simple proposition, a one off payment for the hardware, then no ongoing costs, and I expect they will want to maintain this marketing profile for long enough to build up a customer base on which to launch future payTV services.

Never say never is the motto... :grin:

BrianMc

08-05-2008, 8:24 AM

So e.g Astra 1 at 19.2 where many stations offer up to a 7 day EPG) as long as the box also complies with the freesat spec as well. Although freesat is not an open platform it is also not as restricted a closed system as Sky.
It's not as clear-cut as that - Bob_Cat from Humax on DS said that they
have been willing to really strech the Freesat spec - by having another "non_Freesat" mode.

The Alba based STBs don't even have manual tuning!

nwhitfield

08-05-2008, 8:31 AM

I don't see any problem with this, either (well, not legally; morally, perhaps, and clouding the marketing proposition). The BBC spent a pretty small amount, along with ITV, to set up the system.

But I suspect that, given that channels have to pay 30,000 each year for their EPG slot, once the costs of setup are recovered, it's not actually going to cost the BBC anything to have Freeview there (save, for the sake of non-discrimination, their own EPG fees). It's not designed as a money maker, rather as a cost-neutral service, so it's not as if the BBC would be making a profit from pay channels on there.

As so, as mentioned, just like Freeview's EPG, which is shared across all services on the DTT platform without issue, the Freesat one could have pay channels, without the BBC getting into trouble.

But, of course, first it would have to get to critical mass, and pay channels would have to decide that it was worth the EPG fee for the potential number of viewers.

andyman5002

08-05-2008, 10:19 AM

Im interested in freesat, but I dont want to be tied to one platform. I currently have a 90cm motorised dish and I would like to get a box which would support everything, ie. freesat, sky FTV, and 19.2E and 13E etc.

What I dont understand is whats stopping a device like the dreambox from recieving the freesat EPG? Would it not be possible for someone to write an application for it to receive this? Obviously it wouldn't be the same as a freesat box, but as long as it received a 7day EPG it would be fine. Or is there some sort of hardware limitation that only a freesat box can get around?

Or would an internet EPG work to some extent, as some other receivers have ethernet and could just download an EPG from somewhere.

IF this could be done, then it would almost be the perfect solution with its built in card reader and CI.

Andy

gavan

08-05-2008, 10:24 AM

It is that possibility that Freesat has put a knife into by not mandating a CI slot just as Freeview has and iDTV's have.

Since when does Freeview have a mandated CI slot? I've got a Freeview box at home with no such slot on it.

BrianMc

08-05-2008, 10:27 AM

What I dont understand is whats stopping a device like the dreambox from recieving the freesat EPG? Would it not be possible for someone to write an application for it to receive this? Obviously it wouldn't be the same as a freesat box, but as long as it received a 7day EPG it would be fine. Or is there some sort of hardware limitation that only a freesat box can get around?

What is stopping what you want is that the technical specifications of the Freesat EPG are only released to licensed STB manufacturers!

In time people will reverse-engineer the EPG and related Freesat SI information and what you want will, most likely, become available.

andyman5002

08-05-2008, 10:38 AM

What is stopping what you want is that the technical specifications of the Freesat EPG are only released to licensed STB manufacturers!

In time people will reverse-engineer the EPG and related Freesat SI information and what you want will, most likely, become available.

Looks like its a waiting game then. I wonder if work has begun yet? Hmmmm :devil:

davemurgatroyd2

08-05-2008, 12:13 PM

Starburst

08-05-2008, 3:35 PM

Since when does Freeview have a mandated CI slot? I've got a Freeview box at home with no such slot on it.

It doesn't, I never meant to imply every Freeview box has a mandated CI slot (my Philips 1500 doesn't) but if that's how you interpreted it then I am happy to accept my poor wording, mind you the market really has moved to making it pretty default on all but budget hardware and of course a CI slot is mandated for iDTV's over a certain screen size.

The point being that Freeview has sold in huge numbers while supporting the option of PAY channels, no reason Freesat could not have done the same.

gavan

08-05-2008, 3:45 PM

The point being that Freeview has sold in huge numbers while supporting the option of PAY channels, no reason Freesat could not have done the same.

So we've established that boxes licensed with the Freesat branding can't have a CI slot have we? I thought it was still unclear.

Starburst

08-05-2008, 4:04 PM

So we've established that boxes licensed with the Freesat branding can't have a CI slot have we? I thought it was still unclear.

Not that I know of, all I know for sure is what hardware is showing up now along with and an unconfirmed report that Setanta had lobbyed Freesat for the inclusion of a CI slot last month. Thomson is also quite happy to quote subscription free at every press conference or interview again underlining the stance that it will be closed to PAY channels or at the very least regardless of what manufactures do the EPG will not accommodate PAY offerings.

nwhitfield

09-05-2008, 8:52 AM

I asked for some clarification of this at the one on one briefings yesterday - ie does the Freesat spec actually preclude the addition of a CI slot or not. They said they'll get back to me with more details of that.

gavan

09-05-2008, 9:05 AM