Naim Amps...advice please.

[Tice]

As part of the process of a general upgrade of my system, I've auditioned the Naim 200/202 combination and initial impressions are good but.......there seems to be a lot of negative feeling towards Naim on this site and I'm not sure why.

I'd therefore be grateful for any views from current and previous Naim owners re pros and cons especially if bad things become apparent once you've shelled out large chunks of cash.

[alexs2]

Originally Posted by Tice

As part of the process of a general upgrade of my system, I've auditioned the Naim 200/202 combination and initial impressions are good but.......there seems to be a lot of negative feeling towards Naim on this site and I'm not sure why.

I think it's unfair to say that there is a lot of negative feeling here towards Naim.

If you have a look at other forums,as well as the hi-fi press,you will find that Naim is a manufacturer whose products tend to produce quite strongly polarised opinions,i.e. fairly vociferous in many cases,both for and against.

The important thing really is not whether there is perceived negative feeling or not,but more that you personally are happy with the sound produced.

A lot of my system for instance,would be anathema to a Naim owner,but it still works very nicely....I've always found Naim's gear to be very nicely made,very good rythmically,and with a dynamic and lively sound,if somewhat idiosyncratic(but the latter comment could easily be directed at many other companies' products).

[karkus30]

You have to balance all this with old and new Naim.

New Naim is IMO, no different than other popular amps, although it has retained a touch of its trade mark character its a more rounded sound (and poorer for it IMO). On the plus side, all the daft philosophy with DIN sockets (all of them being el-cheapo parts) which they deemed necessary for signal integrity and sticking to all their other bits has gone..

Now you can buy a Naim amp that will have no foibles and is probably just as reliable and well built as their earlier ranges , but the reason I bought Naim has now gone. If I was buying (thats me, not you) an amp, then its unlikely I would buy a Naim amp, the only exception being the top of the range 500 series which is way beyond my pocket.

So, if you like the 200 series then there is nothing to get upset about, buy it with all the confidence you would in any other quality amplifier, but IMO it will never be as good as the older range for my tastes.

People disliked Naim for their insistence on not deviating from the product range, including cables and disconnects, the arrogant assumption that their sound was the only sound. Some Naimophiles will sneer down their noses at others choices and will stick unneringly to the Naim philosophy regardless of any real world results. Dealers perpetuated the myths and back in the 80s you could really feel intimidated walking into a Naim dealer.

I like the old stuff, I use my own power supply, I have upgrades by Avondale and will add whatever Interconnects and speaker cables I want in whatever configuration makes sense. Modern day Naim now accepts this practise without question and are as helpful as can be.

So there is really no reason to be cautious anymore, buy with confidence, just make sure you also audition other amplifiers.

[Londondecca]

Just to add a small bit to what Alexs2 and Karkus30 have said. I am not a fan of the Naim style of presentation but that it not to infer any negative comments about Naim. In the same way I prefer coffee to tea, I have a preference to other brands.

If you like the sound of the equipment, after hearing it in your own room then you should feel very confident about getting a well made product which has lots of technical support and numerous upgrade paths

[cwilson]

Have a good listen, if it does what you like, that's all that matters, but for a interesting comparison see if you can find a naim dealer that does Rega, and compare it to a cursa exxon monoblock set up

[Dan.Scott1234]

As is quite well known here i've turned into a bit of a Naim-ophile these days for no other reason than I love the sound my kit produces. As Alexs, Karkus and Londondecca have said the only thing that matters is if you like it.

Naim have made as many enemies as friends over the last 20 years by being so dogmatic about using all their equipment etc but things are very different now and naim are more 'accessable' shall we say. The passing of Julian Vereker the company founder seems to of heralded a bit of a re-think, god there's even Phono plugs on the newer ranges as well as the standard DIN plugs

It can be viewed 2 ways, some people think that using one manufacturers cables, amps, cd-players and even speakers is narrow minded, others say it's great and convenient, neither side are right or wrong, just a matter of opinion.

It doesn't matter whether it's a Cyrus, Linn, Creek, Musical Fidelity or Naim system you listen to and like, the important part is that you listen to it and like it!

I'm about to go for a NAC 202 myself and run it through a NAP 150 which I already have, vey excited about it too

Good luck

[Tice]

Thanks for the comments so far. I should point out that I was not implying that AV Forums was anti-Naim but that those members who didn't like the brand tended to be fairly virulent in their opinions.

With regard to the comments about the messianic attitude of dealers pushing Naim, it's something I've experienced with Linn dealers and has always made me wary of their advice.

I take the point that if I like the sound of a piece of equipment, I should buy it with confidence. My problem with this is that it can be a bit like test driving a car. The pitfalls and drawbacks of a car that was fun on a test drive only become apparent after you've lived with the car for a while. Hence my reason for asking for hidden problems from Naim users. It's not that easy to find dealers who will allow home trials.

I would be grateful for any suggestions as to other amps I should consider auditioning in the same price range, also for turntable suggestions in the region of £2000 (including arm and cartridge). I'm happy to consider Linn as long as I can tune out the eulogizing from dealers.

[alexs2]

Turntables.....obviously in the past,Linn and Naim were almost made for each other,although the same is probably not as true now.

The LP12 still has its strengths,and weaknesses,and probably suffers dynamically compared to some more modern designs,although a good,well set up one,can get your feet tapping very nicely.

Others you should look at include Michell,Nottingham Analogue,Origin Live(Aurora),and Clearaudio,although there are plenty of others also,but this would give a starting point.

My own personal favourites for arms and cartridges are Origin Live and Rega,and Lyra MC's,but you should also try Denon,Dynavector etc etc.

TT demonstrations are VERY hard to get,but any decent dealer should allow you to try the amps....I've never had problems with dealers in that respect.

[trailer]

Originally Posted by Tice

I take the point that if I like the sound of a piece of equipment, I should buy it with confidence. My problem with this is that it can be a bit like test driving a car. The pitfalls and drawbacks of a car that was fun on a test drive only become apparent after you've lived with the car for a while. Hence my reason for asking for hidden problems from Naim users. It's not that easy to find dealers who will allow home trials.

You'll find that the Naim after sales service is second to none. The amps are bullet proof. Most of the problems that you will hear about with Naim equipment is with the firmware on the recent AV kit. If you like the Naim sound then you have the benefit of not only excellent second hand values and upgradability, but also as I mentioned excellent after sales service. Naim will still service pretty much anything they have made in the past since day 1.

[Nimby]

My understanding (for what it's worth) is that the high price of Naim kit allows for (and requires) a home set up of the purchased component by the dealer.

I would also include a minimum of a weekend loan of the kit I was serious about purchasing.

Upside with Naim is that it will likely to be repairable (at a price) decades after digital amplification has completely taken over.

It also holds its price well on the secondhand market with international interest.

Why do I always think A/B/X blind listening tests whenever Naim prices crop up? It's a bit Reggie Perrin and the hippo!

[cwilson]

For the turntable, I would look at a Michell Gyro with technoarm, and a Hadcock,
against a Rega P7, and the Notts Analogue. Carts are hard to audition, it depends if you are looking at MM or MC, budget try a Denon DL110, high output moving coil, that works through a MM stage- costs £70-£80 ish and competes at up to £300, if you want to spend a bit move a lyra or dynavector.

If you are looking at spending 2k on a deck, plus a further 1.5-2 on amps then I think a number of dealers would be prepared to offer home dems, Where are you based, maybe we can point you at one.

[Dav1dF]

The 200/202 is a strong combination, open to the upgradeability of one of Naims many power supplies, and should be on anyones shortlist when looking at amplification at this sort of price level.

The company has seemed to have headed in a slightly different direction since the death Of Julian Vereker, but as far as i can see, it's mostly for the better. Don't get me wrong, i'm a huge fan of the older stuff, but equally appreciate their later offerings.

Any manufacturer who tries to take sound quality as far as possible will always be met with scepticism and treated as arrogant and narrow minded. All Naim have tried to do over the many years is produce a system from start to finish where each component compliments the next. Many have not liked the outcome, many more have enjoyed their music collection, and will continue to do so for years to come.

Naim has always insisted on using DIN connections due to far better grounding than phono ones, and have always provided matching interconnects to get the best from their systems. Not sure why Karkus30 mentions these are 'el-cheapo' parts, as most connections on all equipment are normally 'el-cheapo' ones, including phono ones. So this side of things has far from gone, they still insist using DIN connections. They provide some phono connections on their equipment to improve compatibility.

Naim is easy to upgrade (pretty much as far as you wish to go), holds it's value very well, provides excellent customer service and continues to be serviceable decades down the line. How many manufacturers can claim that?

[Nimby]

Originally Posted by cwilson

If you are looking at spending 2k on a deck, plus a further 1.5-2 on amps then I think a number of dealers would be prepared to offer home dems, Where are you based, maybe we can point you at one.

The 202/200+ (essential) Hicap actually looks more like £4k+.

I have been enjoying a similar selection of the older olive kit for the last ten years with no plans to change anything. It has a quality which allows extended listening sessions without discomfort.

A pre-loved 82/250/Hicap olive set would also bring a lot of pleasure for rather less outlay than the new stuff. Though you'd probably miss the dealer support unless you can source the olive kit through them.

[karkus30]

Originally Posted by Dav1dF

Naim has always insisted on using DIN connections due to far better grounding than phono ones, and have always provided matching interconnects to get the best from their systems. Not sure why Karkus30 mentions these are 'el-cheapo' parts, as most connections on all equipment are normally 'el-cheapo' ones, including phono ones. So this side of things has far from gone, they still insist using DIN connections. They provide some phono connections on their equipment to improve compatibility.

Thats the problem........far better grounding ? You could almost have gone along with it if it had been a proper mil spec locking connector, but these were exactly the sort of thing that you find on the worst built midi systems of the 80s. The leads that they made were actually standard mains flex, get one open and have a look at it, standard brown and blue mains flex the sort of thing that hangs from the ceiling with a light bulb attached. Its one of the things to consider when thinking of esoteric Inter connects, they dont really make a lot of difference to Naim amps (get a look at the internal wiring....weakest link in the chain!)

I think its obvious that it ensured you kept using everything Naim and made it easy to connect power supplies and Naxo etc.

These were the sort of things that gave Naim a bad name amongst those 'in the know'. Its academic these days as the company have decided that you can actually use phono connections now.....despite the fact that they have really bad grounding

[trailer]

http://www.naim-audio.com/company/faq.html

Oh and the new Hi-line interconnect (DIN) is circa £500