7.1 channel outputs from HD-DVD players?

[beecee]

after seeing the rather nice 7.1 outputs on the new Panasonic BR player, as my amp has 7.1 inputs, and i dont want to upgrade that to enjoy DDtrue etc.

before i plunge into HD i was wondering has anyone heard if there are any HD-DVD machines coming with on board 7.1 decoders?

[Pecker]

I'm waiting for this, too.

Frankly, it's a bit annoying that the XE-1 will have 5.1 outs, but not 7.1. How much exactly would the extra 2 sockets cost?

Ultimately, it's helped me make up my mind. I'm getting an E-1, and then I'll upgrade in a year or two to a player with 7.1 analogue outputs when they're (A) available and (B) cheaper.

Until then, listening to sound via the optical out will be good enough, and better than from DVD anyway (which I find to be pretty good SQ to start with).

Steve W

[Oakleyspatz]

Originally Posted by Pecker

I'm waiting for this, too.

Frankly, it's a bit annoying that the XE-1 will have 5.1 outs, but not 7.1. How much exactly would the extra 2 sockets cost?

Ultimately, it's helped me make up my mind. I'm getting an E-1, and then I'll upgrade in a year or two to a player with 7.1 analogue outputs when they're (A) available and (B) cheaper.

Until then, listening to sound via the optical out will be good enough, and better than from DVD anyway (which I find to be pretty good SQ to start with).

Steve W

Totally agree P! Surely 5.1 analogue cannot do much more than HDMI can it? I mean the full HD audio is a 7.1 system, not 5.1 or am I missing something?

[Pecker]

I think it's been announced as 7.2, with the possibility to go up to 10.something.

The point is 7.2 must be available now as a technology. There's no way anyone at Dolby in their right minds would try to invent 5.1 now, and announce 7.2 for the future, then try to find a way to bolt the extra channels on at a later date.

One of the BD players has 6.1 (or is it 7.1?) outputs, so the technology is definitely available already.

Looking through What Hi-Fi every month it appears that for some time the vast majority of new amps have 7.1 channels, and have had 6.1 for a few years, with the exception of all-in-one systems. Most of these amps have analogue phono inputs.

It appears to me like a way of getting early adopters to buy a player now, then upgrade later. Or a way of getting people to needlessly upgrade their amps.

Cost to consumers of buying a new amp with HDMI capable of receiving full sound formats = several hundred pounds. Cost to Toshiba of putting an extra 2 analogue outs on their players = a couple of hundred pence.

Steve W

[Bald Monkey]

Are there any HD films out now with 7.1ch's . The HD formats may be capable of it, but has any title so far used that capability.. SD's must have been close to 99% 5.1 only..

[Paulleahey]

Originally Posted by beecee

after seeing the rather nice 7.1 outputs on the new Panasonic BR player, as my amp has 7.1 inputs, and i dont want to upgrade that to enjoy DDtrue etc.

before i plunge into HD i was wondering has anyone heard if there are any HD-DVD machines coming with on board 7.1 decoders?

This has been discussed before on a few threads - there are no 7.1analogue HD-DVD players on the way because currently there is no need as no HD-DVD (or BluRay if correct?) disc is encoded in more than 5.1 - hence having 5.1analogue and HDMI audio gives the same result.

There were limited 5.1EX SD-DVDs so am guessing the studios didn't see the need to produce HD-DVDs or BluRay in more than 5.1?

[Will Scarlet]

Originally Posted by Bald Monkey

Are there any HD films out now with 7.1ch's . The HD formats may be capable of it, but has any title so far used that capability.. SD's must have been close to 99% 5.1 only..

I think Bald Monkey and Paulleahey are absolutely correct. For example, 95% of my SD titles are 5.1 and how long has SD been around as a format. I understand the comparison is not quite a fair one but it gives some indication. No doubt in a few years we will find 6.1/7.1/7.2 soundtracks on HD material but right now, and for the forseeable future, 5.1 will be the norm I suspect. My guess would be that most consumers will be buying new amps and/or next generation players before anyone is likely to require more than 5.1 in HD.

[Pecker]

That's illogical, in light of current technology. If 95% of DVDs have 5.1 soundtracks, why are most amps 6.1/7.1?

The truth is that, even if your DVD is only 5.1, the centre rears can (and probably should) be utilised.

If a cinema is set up correctly for 5.1 (most aren't!) the left-surround speakers will go down the left-hand side of the cinema and along the left hand side of the rear wall. The right-surround speakers will go down the right wall and the right-hand side of the rear wall. A 5.1 amp can't replicate this, but a 7.1 can. But even a 7.1 amp can't replicate this using 5.1 analogue inputs!

On 99% (if not 100%) of 7.1 amps, any 5.1 analogue input will be sent to 5.1 speakers only, and it is impossible to process the rear left & rear right signals to go to your centre-rear speakers. This is only possible if there is a digital input, in which case extra information will be extracted from the rear-left & rear-right channels to feed the centre-rears, or if an anolgue signal is input in the first place.

Finally, there is one more very important reason for having 7.1 outputs.

HD-DVD/Blu Ray have been sold to us in part on the basis of not only the improved PQ, but also the new sound formats. Click on any link like this:

http://www.dolby.com/promo/hd/hdvd-br.html

And you'll find mention of how the new sound formats are better because they can have up to 7.1 channels.

Believe me, if you buy a player with 5.1 outputs now, you'll be inundated in a year or two's time with what a dinosaur you are, and "Didn't you realise Dolby True HD was 7.1? It said so in all the literature", blah, blah.

It's happened before. 18-24 months ago we were all told that 720 lined HD was more than enough. There's now a strong contingent arguing that only 1080p is 'true high definition'. After lots of people have already bought 720 lined displays and projectors, of course.

Ultimately, the two biggest arguments in favour of 5.1 outputs over 7.1 outputs is that it future-proofs you and would cost next-to-nothing.

The question isn't "Why do we need 7.1?" it's "I might need, it costs little, why not give us it?".

Steve W

[Smurfin]

I can't see this being an issue for most people, you need a large living room for one, to get anything out of 7.1 imho, and even then it's only marginal....

[Will Scarlet]

Originally Posted by Pecker

That's illogical, in light of current technology. If 95% of DVDs have 5.1 soundtracks, why are most amps 6.1/7.1?

I did not say that, I said 95% of of my SD titles are 5.1. In answer to your question, to take advantage of the current DD EX, DTS ES (Matrix and Discrete) sountracks available on SD DVDs.

Originally Posted by Pecker

If a cinema is set up correctly for 5.1 (most aren't!) the left-surround speakers will go down the left-hand side of the cinema and along the left hand side of the rear wall. The right-surround speakers will go down the right wall and the right-hand side of the rear wall. A 5.1 amp can't replicate this, but a 7.1 can..

Don't understand the point you are making here at all. With a 7.1 system, which is in fact a 6.1 system with an extra 6th channel, you have two rears. What has that to do with the sides?

Originally Posted by Pecker

On 99% (if not 100%) of 7.1 amps, any 5.1 analogue input will be sent to 5.1 speakers only, and it is impossible to process the rear left & rear right signals to go to your centre-rear speakers.

Why would you want to? A 5.1 mix should ideally be heard over a 5.1 setup as intended and, as already stated, there are no 6.1/7.1 mixed HD DVD discs available at this time. So there is no advantage to having 7.1 outs.

Originally Posted by Pecker

Believe me, if you buy a player with 5.1 outputs now, you'll be inundated in a year or two's time with what a dinosaur you are, and "Didn't you realise Dolby True HD was 7.1? It said so in all the literature", blah, blah.

Nobody here has suggested anything other than it may be a number of years before you will need 7.1 for HD. You will need soundtracks mixed in these formats before you will benefit from 7.1 outs.

Originally Posted by Pecker

Ultimately, the two biggest arguments in favour of 5.1 outputs over 7.1 outputs is that it future-proofs you and would cost next-to-nothing.

I think most early adopters will have changed either their amp or HD player by the time 7.1 is a real advantage and there are enough titles to necessitate it, as I stated in my previous post.
One final question, does the Toshiba XE1 have the ability to decode 6.1 let alone output it?

[Nic Rhodes]

The potential capability exists in all of the Toshiba players for 7.1 but I suspect if they ever wanted to go down this route (and there is no software!!) then they will want to use HDMI as the interface. 6.1 already works fine for DVDs (DTS Es etc) via the digital SPDIF / Bitstream output. I suspect there is little interest for them playing around with old legacy analogue outputs when the future is definately HDMI. I see it as little different from all the DVD players who didn't output 6.1 analogue for DTS Es and DD Ex discs, only 5.1. Most seemed quite happy with the 5.1 analogue outputs and if they wanted 6.1 then they used the more modern connection to get the signal into the receiver / processor, despite the receiver often having 7.1 inputs.

[Bald Monkey]

Pecker, I personally think Smurfin was right that for most people there is little advantage with anything more than a decent 5.1 setup.

I think the majority of amps now have 6.1, or 7.1 etc. because numbers and stats sell. It looks good on the spec. And it gives people a reason to upgrade as well. they feel like they are missing out on something. Although I always think that the money spent on adding esxtra outputs and inputs etc, is money saved from elsewhere....

The way I see it, my next amp (HD decoding hopefully) may have more than 5.1 but I'll stick with the 5.1 layout, as it suits my room best and splitting my speaker budget between 6 is better than between 8 or 10


Unless I happen to move and have a dedicated room the size of a local multiplex.

[Pecker]

I don't know where to begin!

Will, the point I was making is that, in a properly set up cinema, in a 5.1 set-up, the 'side' or 'rear' speakers are both sides and rears at the same time. The 'left-rear' speaker configuration should run down both the the left side of a cinema and the left rear. You can only replicate this with a 7.1 speaker system, it is not possible with a 5.1 speaker system, where the rears can only be placed either on the side walls, or on the back wall, but not both.

Secondly, there's a myth that 7.1 systems are only for larger rooms. Believe me, this is absolute .

My cinema room at my old house was quite small indeed (about 3mx3m), but the difference with the centre rears was noticeable.

Take the closing 'helicopter pan' at the end of 'Se7en'. In 7.1 the pan is smooth as silk. In 5.1 the jump from left to right is jerky, with a massive gap in the soundstage.

A point of note is that there are more 6.1 films out there in your DVD collection than you think. Take Brit rom-com 'Wimbledon'.

Listed on the sleeve as 5.1. But look at the titles at the end of the film, and you'll see the soundtrack is DD-EX. In the DD-EX format, all of the centre-rear information is matrixed into the rear-left and rear-right channels, in exactly the same way the old centre channel information was in the old days of DPL. So any DD-EX film with a 5.1 soundtrack should have the centre rear information still there on the DVD.

Sure enough, during the 'pinging' sequence, the centre rear speakers contain a seperate sound channel to my left & right rears. Except, if I fed my amp with 5.1 outputs from my player, rather than a digital output, that information would be lost.

Steve W

[Pecker]

Originally Posted by Nic Rhodes

The potential capability exists in all of the Toshiba players for 7.1 but I suspect if they ever wanted to go down this route (and there is no software!!) then they will want to use HDMI as the interface. 6.1 already works fine for DVDs (DTS Es etc) via the digital SPDIF / Bitstream output.

Not according to the Toshiba site. It is quite clear and specific that the digital output only supports 5.1. It may, of course, be wrong, but that's what the Toshiba site says.

Originally Posted by Nic Rhodes

I suspect there is little interest for them playing around with old legacy analogue outputs when the future is definately HDMI. I see it as little different from all the DVD players who didn't output 6.1 analogue for DTS Es and DD Ex discs, only 5.1. Most seemed quite happy with the 5.1 analogue outputs and if they wanted 6.1 then they used the more modern connection to get the signal into the receiver / processor, despite the receiver often having 7.1 inputs.

There's absolutely no reason for the future needing to be HDMI for sound.

Anyone who's bought an A/V amp in the last year (and many who bought before that) will have a 6.1/7.1 amp, with 6.1/7.1 analogue inputs, but no way of getting sound via HDMI.

Only sending 6.1/7.1 via HDMI makes their amps at least partially obsolete.

I've had one of my stereo hi-fi amps (an Audiolab 8000A) for 18 years, and it still sounds as good as new.

I'm sure the amplification in my 7.1 Denon A/V amp will do just as well. But I've only had it c.3 years. If I want 6.1/7.1 via HDMI, I'll need to lace out nearly a grand. If Toshiba put 7.1s on their players I won't.

No 7.1 software now. But what about next year? Or in 2 years? Or 18 years?

Simple as that.

Steve W

[rdt123]

Hi,

I have gotten a little behind the times here. Can someone clarify that if an amp doesn't decode DD+, TrueHD etc then people are getting a HD-DVD player to do the decoding then pass this through the analogue outs to the amp? This i presume would give a similar quality to a TrueHD decoding amp? This being the case where on earth are people supposed to plug their SACD/DVD-a players in to the amp? Without using a EXT 6.1 switch i would have thought you were shafted?

Rob