Will a scaler really improve Sky SD? and a HCPC question.

[Chipster]

Hello can you help a noob.

After many weeks researching the plasma forum I have finally decided to place an order for new Panasonic PH9 50 inch plasma.

I have searched this forum and have picked up some useful but sometimes confusing info, so I'm hoping you scaler pros will point me in the right direction.

It has been suggested that if I purchased a VP30 scaler, I would be very happy with the results from my Sky SD box. (Much better than a JS tech scart to VGA converter that I first had in mind) The box only has scart output.

Is this actually the case and if so what would be the best way to connect it?

Also I intend to use my HCPC for DVD and gaming. It is currently set to output 720P for 1:1 pixel mapping via DVI for use with my projector, but the panel will now be my only display source.

Will a scaler improve quality from my PC as well and what would be the best way to connect it?

I am also a little confused about refresh rates and native res. Will a scaler allow me to obtain 1:1 pixel mapping to this display at a refresh rate that will eliminate any stutter. I understand 1:1 is not possible via HDMI, is that correct???

I have also been told a VP30 will address any lip sync problems?

Sorry about all the questions, but I have no way of demo’ing this combo for myself and dont really want to spend a lot of money if the results will only be minimal. I am however very focused on Picture quaility so please help me make my mind up.

Thanks for your help

[Andy98765]

Leave the PC alone, it scales itself.
As for scaling the Sky box I would suggest you are wasting your money, far better to waste on SKY HD which would scale the SD channels anyway.

[Steve_B]

To answer the question of will a scaler improved SKY SD the answer is yes. Though by how much really does depend on how good the original is. The compression bit rate of the channel and the overall strength\quality of signal your box is receiving.

I would disagree that you'd be wasting your money and to go for SKY HD. SKY HD is ridiculously over priced for what you get. Most of the early adopters of SKY HD have video processors (vp) also.

To get the best out of SKY SD would be to get an SDI modded SKY+ box (no subs required) and get a vp which can accept ut. The VP30 is certainly one that can with the SDI option board.

If you are unsure, maybe worth going for a cheaper used HD+, this will do a sterling job of SKY SD via SDI ( I originally had one ). It won't scale HD material, so your PC @ 1280x720 will just be passed through. ( To be honest I can see little difference with my PC being processed via my VP50. )

Once you are convinced you can use it to upgrade to the VP50, which for future proofing would make more sense than a VP30.

Stuttering is normally caused by PAL (50Hz) material being viewed at the NTSC (60Hz - default of most PC video cards ) as frames have to be generated. Also if NTSC is viewed at PAL as frames have to be dropped.

Most new video cards allow switching between 50 and 60Hz ( my ATI Radeon certainly does )

As for lipsync yes certainly all of the recent iSCAN HD onwards allow for a delay in audio. There is a box made by Felston which does the same, it is not a VP and so is cheap.

Hope I got it all correct...

If you are in the Bucks area drop me a PM and I could give you a demo...

[paul1967]

I'm running sky sd with a DVDO HD+ and there is a def improvement you will also need a QED box as well. Theres no ghosting and pic improvement.

[Chipster]

Thanks guys.

Steve_B, a particularly very helpful reply. Since reading it I have been doing yet more research including SDI modded Sky+. I am hoping to buy a VP30 or now maybe a s/hand HD+ with my PH9 screen but will have to add up the costs to have that modded as well as buying a modded Sky box.

Not enough to tempt me right now on Sky HD either so this might be the next best thing?

I do keep wondering if all this equipment will be necessary, especially as I am just getting my head roughly round what it does And since starting on the quest for a new TV/ panel my original budget has gone through the roof… No surprise there really So I have to keep things in some sort of perspective, but as usual, if you want some sort of quality then you have to pay for it.

How did you feed your display via the VP?

Thank you kindly for your offer of a demo, I may drop you a PM if that’s OK, I live in Bristol so maybe first with just one or two questions regarding your set-up.

I would guess the classifieds here would be a fair place to start but can you help me in how to identify a V1 Sky+ box as the only ones I’ve been able to identify for sure are the early Pace ones.

Thanks again and happy New Year to you all.

[Steve_B]

Budget going through the roof... tell me about it I have spent over 50% of the cost of the plasma on the VP, cables and modded SKY+

With the Pioneer, I have to use the external media receiver. I connect the SKY+ to the VP via SDI and RGBs via a TiVo. The VP is then connected using HDMI to the media receiver. I use Wireworld Ultraviolet cables which do make an marked improvement.

How to tell a v1 SKY+ box... its called the Pace 3000, it is the only one which can be SDI modded... so if its SDI modded its a v1 . All the later ones cannot due to circuit board integration, the mpeg decoder is no longer a seperate component.

If you can stretch to it theres a VP50 on the classifieds at the mo...

As to the PM... no probs.

Glad to be of help.

[David PluggedIn]

Hi Chipster,

If you are looking at a cheaper way of using your PC to perform video processing duties for you then you can still get great results using the standard SweetSpot Video Processor. This takes RGBS from your Sky box (so you can use any make/model of box), and then uses your PC to upscale to the resolution of your plasma. In terms of price/performance then this is hard to beat. The SDI option that you have been looking at goes a step further, it bypasses the digital->analogue conversion that is done in the Sky box to drive the SCART output, and sends a pure digital stream out to your video processor or PC.

any questions then let us know.

[redpavlos]

I guess it's largely up to your own priorities in terms of what you like to watch.

If it's picture quality that interests you, then go for HD.

The jump from Sky SD to Sky HD is jawdropping.

By comparison, the increment from 'plain' SD to processor upconverted SD is likely to be noticeable but small, and will of course depend on how well or otherwise your display deals with de-interlacing etc.

But you will need to have a critical eye to appreciate the subtle improvements. It won't come anywhere close to HD.

Bear in mind that the main artefacts for Sky SD and for Freeview arise from low bit rates. No processor can undo the damage once it's done at the encoder.

Before my VP50 I had a VP30. Lip sync is all over the place, although it's certainly possible to provide individual compensation for each input. It's not the fault of the processor, but depends also on 1) the broadcast; 2) how well the receiver/decoder adapts to the delays in decoding stereo / 5.1 surround; 3) the delay in the display which can vary according to display mode.

[JetJockey]

Hi RedPavlos

I just happen to have the same Fuji panel as you and Sky HD.

I would be interested in a considered opinion on the merits of using a VP as you do. What benefits are you getting, picture wise, by using the VP as I believe the Fuji inbuilt scaling is already very good.

Many thanks, Gerald.

[David PluggedIn]

The jump from Sky SD to Sky HD is jawdropping.

By comparison, the increment from 'plain' SD to processor upconverted SD is likely to be noticeable but small, and will of course depend on how well or otherwise your display deals with de-interlacing etc.

But you will need to have a critical eye to appreciate the subtle improvements. It won't come anywhere close to HD.

Bear in mind that the main artefacts for Sky SD and for Freeview arise from low bit rates. No processor can undo the damage once it's done at the encoder.

There is a lot more to it than that. The reason that many digital display owners enjoy a huge jump in quality when going from an SD to an HD source is precisely because the internal video processing on most SD displays is hopeless. By plugging in an HD source, they then see a big (and dis-proportionate) improvement as HD sources have resolutions that flat panel displays are engineered to deal with, and as a result the internal display video processor is doing much less work. However, as we have seen with the HD boxes from Sky, processing SD video done badly does look poor.
There are really so many variables , with Sky for example it depends on what channels you watch, the programmes you watch, how you connect to your display, what the processing is like on that display etc etc.

The common theme though is that it is always flat panel owners that have the biggest complaint about Sky/Freeview, CRT owners far less so, illustrating again where the problems are.

I *would* agree with you on Sky Sports though, this varies from looking very good indeed to poor (mosquito noise around players being the biggest issue)

Chipster, your best bet is to wait until you get your panel, and then see what the results look like. The picture should look like 'a big crt' on the best channels, if it does not, i.e. you are seeing digital noise, smearing, blocking etc then you will be able to improve this with an external video processing solution.
Many of the retailers will offer you home trials so you can try before you buy, which might also be an option for you.

[redpavlos]

Originally Posted by JetJockey

Hi RedPavlos

I just happen to have the same Fuji panel as you and Sky HD.

I would be interested in a considered opinion on the merits of using a VP as you do. What benefits are you getting, picture wise, by using the VP as I believe the Fuji inbuilt scaling is already very good.

Many thanks, Gerald.

Gerald,

Yes, the Fuji scaling is good, particularly on HD. Ok, might only be 'field scaling', but in practice the pictures look really good and that's what counts. I've compared HD closely with/without the VP50 and the benefits are there, but they don't leap out at you in the same way as going from SD to HD. You have to look carefully, which is not generally what happens in normal viewing. For example, on HD with the VP50 fine diagonal lines are cleaner, not slightly jaggy, but it's subtle...

I suspect that some of the benefits of proper deinterlacing/scaling are being masked by the slight softening that ocurrs on motion, in common with all other plasmas. It's much better than any LCD I've seen - with the Fuji it's a 'graceful' effect but it's there nevertheless.

I do appreciate the slightly cleaner look to SD pictures, in this respect the VP50 is similar to the VP30. But as mentioned, on SD the digital coding artefacts often dominate - and not just on sport!

Oh, and David, agreed of course that many SD displays have poor deinterlacing etc. And most SD channels on Sky are encoded at 3/4 of full SD resolution... But anyway, it's the jump between properly deinterlaced Sky SD and HD that I describe as jawdropping, and it's obvious to all who have seen my system - it's a leap from 'good' to 'superb'.

Also useful having the VP50 acting as a switcher. The adjustable audio delays (per input) are helpful too.

If your budget can stretch, get one. If not, don't worry. You did the right thing by going HD first!

[Chipster]

Thanks for the very interesting replys.

David PluggedIn, I have considered the PC route, but am trying to keep things as user freindly as possible.

That said, I think I will try a scaler and SDI box. In for a penny and all that.

Then hopefully it will be just a question of pressing a few buttons once everything is configured.

I really dont think Sky HD is worth the big bucks just yet, so see this as a reasonable stop gap.

redpavlos, are you saying you had lip sync problems with the VP30 but this was ok on the VP50?

Thanks again all for taking time to reply.

[Ultima]

I have SDI Modded Sky+ (Thanks David PluggedIn) into a Lumagen Vision DVI SDI (Thanks Gordon@Convergent) into a Panny plasma and the difference to the picture from RGB Scart to Plasma is like night and day.

The SDI route was the best move I have made with AV.

Regards
Martin

[redpavlos]

Originally Posted by Chipster

redpavlos, are you saying you had lip sync problems with the VP30 but this was ok on the VP50?

No. I don't recall any differences bettween the VP30 and VP50 in respect of audio delay. Both allow adjustments in the range 0-200 ms, per input. Both compensate for the video delays that take place within the processor.

I still have lip sync issues. Ideally, every individual device within the broadcast and reception chains should provide an appropriate compensating audio delay to match what's happening to the video. Unfortunatley, in the real world, corners get cut. There are many places where errors can and do occur, and they accumulate.

This is an industry-wide problem, and needs to be addressed as a 'system' issue. I understand this may be happening, and future versions of hdmi should allow, for example, the display to provide feedback on how much delay there really is in the video processing. This will then presumably rely on intelligence somewhere else (e.g. in future video processors?) to automatically provide the necessary variable audio delay correction according to display mode.

The annoyance caused by lip sync errors is somewhat subjective, and most don't notice errors until they are large. Others can sense something is wrong, but it's not always easy to be immediately sure which way the adjustment needs to be made. Few can detect a one frame error (in SD terms) of 40 ms.

[Chipster]

redpavlos. Thanks, I understand now. I have just purchased a VP50 so I guess I will have to see for myself when I get it, along with my PH9.

I guess then most people with a domestic no frills plasma TV may not notice this lip sync problem so much, but are you saying the more equipment you have, the more processing is required to keep it under control. Or is it there all the time but not spotted my the majority? That said I have lost sync by as much as 3 seconds or completely on occassion when viewing Sky UKTV!! And thats viewing via a CRT. This must be a Sky issue though.

ashworthacca. How did you connect everything together, and did you experiment before settling on best connection type.

Thanks.