Upscaling DVD players - have I got this right?

I read many posts on this forum that suggest that upscaling DVD players aren't worth the premium. However as I also understand it these players will deliver 720p via HDMI which must be better than 576p or perhaps 720p via component?
I also understand that a LCD panel will also upscale?
So assuming my LCD panel has both HDMI and component inputs if I play a DVD movie how do I get the best PQ?

[Jules]

The thing is, DVD discs do not store 720p material, so its down to the job of the DVD player or the display to 'upscale' the 576 line material to 720p, or to whatever fills your screen.

The reason people here say that the upscaling DVD players aren't worth it is simply because you're paying for something that your display already does.
The marketing buffs for the electronics companies have fooled Jo Public into believing you are getting something new with upscaling DVD players.
The reality is you're not!

That said, expensive upscaling DVD players probably do a better job of upscaling the 576 line material than the display does for itself.
But you've got to pay alot of money before it becomes worthwhile... and it very much depends how good or bad your display is at upscaling 576 line material.

[9761]

Originally Posted by Jules

The thing is, DVD discs do not store 720p material, so its down to the job of the DVD player or the display to 'upscale' the 576 line material to 720p, or to whatever fills your screen.

The reason people here say that the upscaling DVD players aren't worth it is simply because you're paying for something that your display already does.
The marketing buffs for the electronics companies have fooled Jo Public into believing you are getting something new with upscaling DVD players.
The reality is you're not!

That said, expensive upscaling DVD players probably do a better job of upscaling the 576 line material than the display does for itself.
But you've got to pay alot of money before it becomes worthwhile... and it very much depends how good or bad your display is at upscaling 576 line material.

but would a display still upscale if a standard dvd was connected via RGB Scart?

[Hallsy]

Hmmm, this is a confusing subject, I have just been looking at upscaling players (only because my old Yam has died) and was comparing SD-360E and HD860, was going to go with the Samsung as that supported 1080i upscaling, but pretty sure tosh only does 720p, yet the screen I'll be connecting to is 1080i compatible so perhaps player doesn't matter so much?
As for RGB I'm pretty sure you only get 576p, but can get 720p via component?

[Jules]

Yes, it has to.
If you feed a 576 line source (like DVD) and your display is e.g. 1386 by 768... i.e. 768 lines, then for it to fill your screen the display is scaling it up.

If yoru display didn't upscale , then all your DVD's would occupy only a small portion of your screen.

[Hallsy]

So which upscaler will be doing the work? If your DVD player is upscaling to say 720p, and you have a 720p native display then it has nothing to do so displays it as is - right? But if you send it a std 576p signal from a non-upscaling player it then has to upscale, so best way to compare is via HDMI, then compare with Scart, hence using either dvd player or TV's upscaler?

Or is that wrong!!??

[Jules]

If your DVD player is upscaling to say 720p, and you have a 720p native display then it has nothing to do so displays it as is - right?

You got it!

[Hallsy]

OK, good stuff - I remember going downt thsi route with A/D conversions between CDP's and Amplifiers - but that's another story!!

As I say, I need a new player anyway and so as not to waste money before the HD war is finsihed, I'll go for either SD-360E or NVPS76H, and will do my own testing to see which has the better upscaler!!

Originally Posted by Jules

You got it!

Sorry I'm still lost!

So I have the option of three different DVD players.

ONE supplies 576p via RGB scart

TWO supplies 720p via component

THREE supplies 720p via HDMI (possibly 1080 i also???)

The TV is lets say a popular lower cost HD Ready Panel with all three input options (Tosh 32WLT66 or LGLC2D etc.)

So what differences will I see from the three different DVD players if any? (playing the same movie)

[Matt_C]

I have been wondering this myself...

Couple of scenario's then.

1) I have a CRT that displays 480p (is that right?) and a DVD player connected via scart. If the DVD has 576 lines, does the TV then DOWNscale the image to 480 lines?

2) Same CRT with DVD connected via component leads - TV doesn't support prog scan tho. So again, does the TV downscale the 576p to 480p?

Lastly, I upgrade to an LCD with a native 1280x720 (720p?) res, and a DVD player that upscales via HDMI and does prog scan via component... What res do I get out of these three connections;

1) RGB SCART
2) Component
3) HDMI upscaled

I *pressume* that via scart, the DVD outputs 576, and the LCD upscales to 720, via component it's outputted as 576, but not sure what the TV does with it (prog scan) and via HDMI the player upscales to 720p, although the TV automatically does this anyway?

[Hallsy]

Not sure about 1st part with the CRT, but to clarify the rest,

if the LCD is 720p or 1080p, the signal is upscaled whatever, as Jules said, if it was kept in a lower format the viewable size would be smaller than the screen size.

The debate is whether an upscaling DVD player is needed or not, it all depends which has the better upscaler, the DVD player or the TV.

If a non upscaling DVD player is used, or a component or RGB signal fed then the TV as to use it's upscaler to upscale the signal to 720p (or1080i) or 1080p depending on TV res.
If an upscaling DVD player is used and upscaled to same native res as TV, then the DVD players upscaling will effect PQ as the TV no longer needs to upscale it.

Does that make sense?

[TarMoo]

There have been a few posts recently by people with LCD screens (e.g. Sony) who were not happy with the blocky pixelation of standard DVD output. They found that an upscaled picture (e.g. via the inexpensive Oppo 981) produced far better results.

I have to say that with my Panasonic PHD8 plasma the picture quality is very good with SD material from TV or unscaled component output from my 1920. I am not sure of the added benefit of an upscaler in a DVD player or AV Receiver (like the Yamaha 2700).

So the requirement for upscaling may depend on your choice of screen technology.

Originally Posted by Matt_C

I have been wondering this myself...

Couple of scenario's then.

1) I have a CRT that displays 480p (is that right?) and a DVD player connected via scart. If the DVD has 576 lines, does the TV then DOWNscale the image to 480 lines?

Can answer the above at least - a PAL CRT displays 576i , 480i is NTSC. My current DVD player will output 576p or 480p but CRT's dont usually handle this. In a CRT there is no upscaling or downscaling, for 576i it sets one line frequency and for 480i it sets a lower one.

As for the rest am still confused myself - I was told that with an LCD display it is better to use the HDMI path. Certainly from what I have seen the PQ from an upscaling DVD connected via HDMI seems to be considerably better than an ordinary DVD showing same film via RGB. Many TV retailers now seem to use upscaling DVD players as source for demos of LCD's. But I dont know why/

[SquintingBadger]

My experience, and I've just tried this, is that non-upscaled (either HDMI at 480P, or an SD source such as composite) show lots of aliasing and mpeg artifacts. Switching to 720P HDMI and they virtually all vanish. Result is a much better picture.

Apparantly my tv and player have the same scaling chips. In any case, freeview looks stunning either from the built-in decoder or from my PVR via SCART. Yet letting the DVD player do the upscaling looks much better. I guess this makes sense, best to do everything at the source where the information is.

[Hallsy]

On a side note, I just wanted to vent some opinions I have in response to those that often say 'anyone wanting an upscaling DVD player under £100 for their £2000 player expecting reults has been sucked in by the marketing ploys'.

Well, it is commonly reported that PQ using digital connections (HDMI, DVI-D) is better than anlogue connections (component, RGB Scart, etc), so most people want to use their new HD TV with a digital source, and so buy a new HDMI player.

Now - I personally haven;t seen a DVD player that outputs an HDMI signal without upscaling at source, so perhaps it's a case of if you want to use your HDMI connections, you HAVE to buy an upscaling player.

Secondly, OK so your new top dog TV cost £2000, you'd like to hope that some of that money went towards the qaulity of the panel, case, audio & video circuitry - once the money has been split many ways it's not necessarily going to mean it has a far higher quality upscaler.

With DVD players being older technology the cost of manufacture has dwindled and so maybe they can afford to spend extra on the latest 'marketing ploys'.

I sit on the fence, if I connect my new cheapo upscaling DVD to my new HD LCD (720p) and see an improvement using RGB scart or component over HDMI, then fair enough, my TV has a better upscaler, but if I see an improvement over HDMI, then maybe my player has a better upscaler.

Either way I won't be too bothered, I jst want the best PQ with what I have, and as I need a new DVP, I'll buy one that has an HDMI output so I can at least try it