Decided to give up on BluRay ... for now

[HeweyBoy101]

I was all geared up to order a BD player over the Xmas break. However, after much thought I have decided to bin the idea for now. Very unlike me as I usually jump in feet first with new technology (especially when the money is already in the bank!).

My reasons for delaying are:

- Poor choice of worthwhile titles (at least compared to HD DVD).

- Players still too expensive.

- Reviews showing HD DVD still the format of choice (at least a match for BD in quality terms and half the price in terms of hardware).

- VC1 vs MPEG2 issues etc.

- Advanced Audio Decoding. None of the currently available players have this decoding on board for TrueHD or DTS HD audio. We even have software titles available with DTS HD Master Audio, and no players than can decode it. Pathetic. Only Panasonic have promised a firmware upgrade, and even then, not until April, and we still don't know if that will include the audio upgrade!

- General level of (dis) interest in Bluray / anti-Sony sentiment. This wouldn't normally bother me, but I do see daily the volume of traffic in this forum, which is generally sees only 10% of those viewing the HD DVD related threads. Come to think of it - only about 3 people are likely to see this thread!

All of the above makes me want to wait. In any case, delaying my purchase can only save me money. If we see some studio defections to HD DVD, then I may not need to buy BluRay at all. Alternatively, if BluRay is successful, I can buy at a cheaper price point in the not too distant future.

I can now go online and order some more HD DVD's - should keep me happy for the time being.

[Rasczak]

If there are no titles that interest you at present then you will only win by delaying your purchase - this time next year the players will be cheaper, better specced (full BD Live and next gen audio support for example) and may even be dual format.

I firmly believe that neither format is going anywhere - each are too firmly entrenched with exclusive support - but if the lacklustre titles don't enthuse you at present it's pointless buying in. You'd just be wasting your money IMHO.

[Jakeh1969]

Good call HeweyBoy101. I desperately want Blu-Ray now that I'm no longer going for HD-DVD but feel distinctly underwhelmed by what's currently on offer in the way of hardware.

The Panasonic appears to be a worthy machine but it's extremely overpriced. Even Sony aren't going to try and sell their Blu-Ray player at that price level when it's eventually launched here.

And as for the Samsung....

I'm looking forward to hearing what's announced at CES for the UK market. Rumours are that we will be getting a revised Sony BDP-S1 or a brand new second generation machine.

[Ian_S]

Originally Posted by HeweyBoy101

Advanced Audio Decoding. None of the currently available players have this decoding on board for TrueHD or DTS HD audio. We even have software titles available with DTS HD Master Audio, and no players than can decode it. Pathetic. Only Panasonic have promised a firmware upgrade, and even then, not until April, and we still don't know if that will include the audio upgrade!

So what are your thoughts on the HD-DVD Studio Canal releases that have DTS-HD MA tracks that aren't supported by any existing players and Toshiba have not promised any kind of upgrade so far?? Also with the E1 apparently no longer containing SHARC DSPs, such upgrades (as was done with TrueHD on the A1/XA1) may not even be possible...

[Nic Rhodes]

NEC are also a signature on the new DTS MA agreements so anything is possible but until these libraries are put onto players no HD DVD or BD have DTS MA implemented. The general audio chips used by many of these devices certainly leaves things open for future upgrades however on both formats, just like HD DVD has done already with 5.1 TrueHD and the Panny BD has prommised to do but hasn't done yet.

[HeweyBoy101]

Originally Posted by Ian_S

So what are your thoughts on the HD-DVD Studio Canal releases that have DTS-HD MA tracks that aren't supported by any existing players and Toshiba have not promised any kind of upgrade so far?? Also with the E1 apparently no longer containing SHARC DSPs, such upgrades (as was done with TrueHD on the A1/XA1) may not even be possible...

These (Canal titles) have only just been released, and by and large we do not see DTS MA tracks on the huge majority of HD-DVD releases.

I didn't buy into HD DVD until TrueHD decoding was available. With BluRay, the bias seems to be toward DTS (rather than Dolby). Therefore, I will delay any purchase until the BluRay product(s) have had time to catch up and actually do what they should be designed to do in the first place.

There is also the added bonus that these Bluray players can only get cheaper with time (or extinct).

[Ian_S]

Originally Posted by HeweyBoy101

These (Canal titles) have only just been released, and by and large we do not see DTS MA tracks on the huge majority of HD-DVD releases.

And only Fox releases on BD.

I didn't buy into HD DVD until TrueHD decoding was available. With BluRay, the bias seems to be toward DTS (rather than Dolby). Therefore, I will delay any purchase until the BluRay product(s) have had time to catch up and actually do what they should be designed to do in the first place.

So if you're into your audio then, which I assume you are if TrueHD was so important, why pass on Blu-ray for audio reasons when it's the one area that it has been ahead of HD-DVD for? Nearly ALL Sony, Disney, Lionsgate and Fox (albeit DTS-HD MA) have lossless soundtracks. The first three have been using PCM rather than a compressed codec such as Dolby or DTS, and Disney have even been providing some 24 bit 48KHz tracks, which are for film about as good as it gets.

Even the Fox releases without full decoding will pump out a full 1.5Mbps track compatible with existing DTS decoders that rather puts the more common 640kbps DD+ tracks found on most Warner releases to shame.

So, given that TrueHD on HD-DVD is an occasional participant and lossless tracks on BD are much more common, waiting for DTS-MA or TrueHD support on BD seems a bit odd if you like audio.

[HeweyBoy101]

Originally Posted by Ian_S

And only Fox releases on BD.
So if you're into your audio then, which I assume you are if TrueHD was so important, why pass on Blu-ray for audio reasons when it's the one area that it has been ahead of HD-DVD for? Nearly ALL Sony, Disney, Lionsgate and Fox (albeit DTS-HD MA) have lossless soundtracks. The first three have been using PCM rather than a compressed codec such as Dolby or DTS, and Disney have even been providing some 24 bit 48KHz tracks, which are for film about as good as it gets.

Even the Fox releases without full decoding will pump out a full 1.5Mbps track compatible with existing DTS decoders that rather puts the more common 640kbps DD+ tracks found on most Warner releases to shame.

So, given that TrueHD on HD-DVD is an occasional participant and lossless tracks on BD are much more common, waiting for DTS-MA or TrueHD support on BD seems a bit odd if you like audio.

Fair point. Thanks. How good exactly are the lossless PCM tracks - I read somewhere that they are 16bit? How do they compare to TrueHD for instance?

Also, what is the best BD player for sound quality / audio options (assuming I would be happy with pq on any available player).

Cheers - good feedback - that what these forums are for

[Rasczak]

Originally Posted by HeweyBoy101

Fair point. Thanks. How good exactly are the lossless PCM tracks - I read somewhere that they are 16bit? How do they compare to TrueHD for instance?

The PCM tracks are very good - just wish Lionsgate and BV would use them more. I am yet to hear anything in PCM that has as much wow as the 1812 overture conclusion to V for Vendetta in Dolby TrueHD though Definetly the best high def audio moment for me at present

[Ian_S]

Originally Posted by HeweyBoy101

Fair point. Thanks. How good exactly are the lossless PCM tracks - I read somewhere that they are 16bit? How do they compare to TrueHD for instance?

Also, what is the best BD player for sound quality / audio options (assuming I would be happy with pq on any available player).

Cheers - good feedback - that what these forums are for

No problem. In terms of how PCM tracks compare to TrueHD, in theory an uncompressed PCM version of a soundtrack should sound identical on the same equipment as a Dolby TrueHD track. The difference between PCM and TrueHD is simply that TrueHD takes less space to store on disc, and also may require a lower bitrate to get the sound physically off disc. However, once decoded and uncompressed by the player, what you are left with in player before digital to analogue converison is in fact PCM. Absolute proof of this by blind comparison is difficult to do as no-one publishes a disc with PCM and TrueHD options, but you'd have a hard time saying one was better than the other with the same source.

IMO, if all soundtracks are presented in lossless form (PCM, TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio) then if you think one film sounds better than another then that really is because the film itself has better sound design.

In terms of player options, on both sides none of the recognised 'audio' brands are involved yet. I suspect there is little to choose between them on quality, and a lack of either HD-DVD or Blu-ray music discs makes it harder still to compare. Rasczak for example quotes V for Vendetta as sounding outstanding because of music. If I had to choose right now from existing players I'd plump with the Panasonic simply because they have stated they will implement the advanced codecs as firmware upgrades.

As for 16 or 24 bit, the more bits the better IMO, and some of the Disney PCM tracks are 24 bit. It has been rumoured that the Fox DTS tracks are 24 bit, but it's hard to confirm. Most however on both formats are 16 bit, 48KHz, which whilst they may be presented in a lossless codec, are clearly downsampled to start with from the film masters which are usually 24bit, 48KHz.

[Rasczak]

Originally Posted by Ian_S

Rasczak for example quotes V for Vendetta as sounding outstanding because of music. If I had to choose right now from existing players I'd plump with the Panasonic simply because they have stated they will implement the advanced codecs as firmware upgrades.

Having had the Samsung and Panasonic side by side and connected to my own equipment the former was better with PCM tracks than the Panasonic (IMHO). Given the few release with DTS-HD MA and the even fewer (any?) with TrueHD the lack of next gen codec support isn't an issue for me as I'll be upgrading early next year anyway. And it's the whole scene including the music that is so impressive about V.