SXRD vs Sagem HD50

[PaulB]

Just a brief comparison. Having had a Sagem HD50 for some months and now having an SXRD, I thought folks might like my thoughts on how they compare. Note - Sagem was not calibrated (it can't be as there is no service menu for the required advanced calibration), SXRD has yet to be calibrated.

The SD display from a SkyHD box is better on a Sagem than the SXRD, noticably better. Whether the Sagem masks the the 575i/p issue in someway or whether the SXRD is better at displaying the source material (for good or bad) is unknown but SD looks better on the Sagem. The SXRD SD display can be improved but this requires an external scaler (although Sky could resolve the situation through an upgrade to the Sky box - if they ever get round to it that is).

HD material is roughly the same, in fact, I'd venture that it is almost impossible to tell which set is which in day to day viewing (the SXRD does have overblown colours but that doesn't make it display HD material any better!). HD material on both sets can only be described as gorgeous!

Now to the real difference between them - contrast. I've read here before that the Sagem (and other DLP sets like the Toshiba SP50 etc) have great contrast. In bright scences I'd agree, black looks black. But, start watching a dark scene and on these sets things change for the worse, a lot worse. Black becomes nothing than a murky grey on these sets at best (on my Sagem they became a murky greenish grey!), shadow detail is lost and it can be hard to see whats going on. The SXRD blows these sets out of the water. Whilst still not "crt black" (or at least a crt calibrated to show inky black rather than shadow detail!) its blacker than I've seen from any digital RPTV or digital pj (excluding Sony's own SXRD pj's). I watched Pirates of the Caribean Dead Mans Chest on the Sagem and then the SXRD. On the Sagem the opening scene where the guy is singing "15 men on a dead mans chest" etc looked ok but dull, on the SXRD the same scene looked superb and details not seen on the Sagem stuck out a mile! Yes folks, a contrast ratio of 10,000:1 really does the biz, providing a depth and clarity to the picture that simply does not exist on previous sets.

So 1 up to the Sagem for SD via Sky, draw on the HD material and 1 up to the SXRD for contrast. Hmmm, so what does that mean for me? Well, I can forego the SD quality for the overall improvement in contrast, low contrast/black level has always been a sore spot for me and having a set that finally overcomes this problem is very welcome. If you already have a Sagem (or other DLP), I'd not rush out to change it for an SXRD unless you have the spare cash or have an oppurtunity to get one comes your way.

Just my tuppence worth.
Paul

[arfster]

You need to try it with HD-DVD, as Sky HD isn't really high enough bitrate. It can't even show what the Sagem is capable of, let alone the SXRD.

Oh, and the SXRD really, really needs to be calibrated. The default settings look atrocious, whereas the default on the Sagem is pretty good.

I'd agree with your points on SD though - the Sagem has always been fairly good in this respect. The extra size of the SXRD doesn't help though.

[PaulB]

Agreed, the Sagem is an excellent out-of-the-box solution. A pity that Sagem have decided to drop DLP, I think that had they continued to produce DLP RPTV's then the next version would have been an absolute cracker!

I did calibrate the SXRD (and the Sagem) for basic contrast, brightness etc so that both sets had a common starting point but the SXRD can only improve with advanced calibration whereas the Sagem can't. Its impressive how good the Sagem actually is in all the important areas. Having made the leap from Sagem to the SXRD, with the sole exception of contrast and a few other bells and whistles, there has been little real gain. I love the Sony but in hindsight I could easily have lived with the Sagem just as happily.

I've not seen HD-DVD and am very much looking forward to doing so - which brings me to my next deliema is stand alone player or Xbox drive.....hmm!?

Paul

[mray]

Hi.
I don't think there's that much difference between SkyHD and HD DVD, when Sky use a decent bit-rate. Much like your findings with the Sagem and Sony.

I have the 56B, and I've seen the SXRD in action at Tottenham Court Rd. I thought my TV was just as good as the Sony. Definitely sharper PQ wise, which is always the area that I concentrate on.

[GarryF]

Nice review, nice to know my 56" sagem probably isn't that far behind the latest tech.

Would also agree that if sagem had stayed in the game their next generation would have raised the bar for everyone.

[arfster]

Originally Posted by mray

Hi.
I don't think there's that much difference between SkyHD and HD DVD, when Sky use a decent bit-rate.

Depends on a lot of things really. On my Sagem, there isn't an enormous difference, although it's definitely still there. This is especially true with the better ones like King Kong - you're talking 13mbit constant bitrate vs 19mbit variable, which is no contest at all. It's almost twice the peak (13 vs 25), which really shows itself when things start moving around. With many of the poorer discs the difference isn't so large, because the studios did a lazy job.

On a 1080p set, the difference is even bigger - assuming the set is big enough. Shops don't really do the SXRD any favours, because they haven't got it configured properly and it looks really bad out of the box (worse than the Sagem w/ default settings imo).

[mray]

I've got KK coming soon!
I know there is a difference, but it's not that great, to my eyes. But then, sometimes I don't see a fantastic difference between HD and SD (sacrilege I know!), when comparing a well mastered DVD, such as Revenge of the Sith.

[ash]

Paulio, nice to see you finally invested into something

What have you done to your Sagem?

[PaulB]

Originally Posted by ash

Paulio, nice to see you finally invested into something

What have you done to your Sagem?

He he, you know us Scots, extremely reluctant to part with our cash at the best of times, takes something special to release the locks on our wallets

The Sagem originally had a fault with the SPDIF (although subsequently I managed to fix it myself) that I reported to Comet on day one and they agreed to exchange it so I deceided to take up their offer and swapped it out for the SXRD. As luck had it, they delivered the SXRD early and had to come back a couple of days later to pick up the Sagem so I had a good chance to compare both

I should point out that for me, contrast/black level is King therefore I'm very pleased with the SXRD as compared to the Sagem. But, like I said above its a bit of a stuggle to really justify one over the other, the leap between an SD set and an HD set is a lot greater than the leap between a 720p set and a 1080p set - HD looks very good at both resolutions. As arfster correctly says though, the right material on the right display will show the difference although I'm still dubious that in every day viewing the difference would be that apparent from 10ft away, dunno, I'm just guessing I suppose. Again, I stress that I have not seen HD-DVD (especially true 1080p stuff) and therefore reserve the right to be proved totally wrong (again)

I can certainly see where a higher bandwidth would produce a better picture, so maybe I'm just being stupid about 720p vs 1080p on a telly - I'll hopefully find out within the next month or so!
Regards,
Paul

[arfster]

Yeah, that's a fair point. At 10 feet, the Sony 55" isn't really big enough for 1080p to shine. You really need to be 7-8 feet or so, as 1080p ideal seating distances are unusually close to the set (or so it seems, it's really on 30 degrees, aka cinema standard approx)

[NicolasB]

Originally Posted by PaulB

I did calibrate the SXRD (and the Sagem) for basic contrast, brightness etc so that both sets

Could you clarify which settings on the Sony you've tweaked and which ones you haven't? One thing that has become clear since the Sony TV came out is quite how vast the gap is between the "out of the box" settings and the "correct" settings. Given quite how many settings there are on the Sony, it may make rather a large difference whether you have tweaked just 2 or 3 controls, or if you've set 20 or so to approximately correct values.

This is not an implied criticism of what you have or haven't done, I just need some more context.

[chachi]

Thanks for such an uncoloured commentary/comparison.

When I had a chance to see an SXRD in a home situation post-tweaking while I did notice the contrast differential and what appeared to be a difference in overall colourspace representation, I was not blown-away with it (compared to our Sagem 56") as I'd originally feared I might be.

I too wish Sagem had gone on to produce another generation or two of screens, what they managed with the chipset/assembly in the 56" model still amazes me today. A 1080 capable 70-odd inch version would've been dreamy

[PaulB]

Originally Posted by NicolasB

Could you clarify which settings on the Sony you've tweaked and which ones you haven't?

This is not an implied criticism of what you have or haven't done, I just need some more context.

No criticism taken at all my friend, its a very valid question. The only settings I changed were contrast and brightness and then I left everything else at default. I then switched all the enhancements to off which produced a better picture than the default but still (in my mind) not upto the SD quality of the Sagem.

Having now had more time to play with the settings, I think its getting closer to the Sagem but still not as good (with the Sagem now back at Comet, I can only rely on my memory for this). The Sagem took only minutes to get a good picture (seconds really, it was good out of the box) whereas the Sony clearly needs to be fine tuned to even get a half-decent SD picture. I think the fine tuning process (with as you correctly say its many and indeed confusing options) will be lost on most folks and I can well imagine these sets being sold to people who will never see a decent picture on it.

I'd still give the edge to the Sagem on SD but in reality I think its a moot point as anything looks bad compared to Hi-Def. We need to be mindful of the 576p/i issue from the SkyHD box, this may well be a factor in the quality of SD material I'm seeing and that the Sagem possibly handles its better (or masks the problem). Certainly, upscaled SD DVD looked every bit as good on the SXRD as it did on the Sagem so I suspect the answer is in the 576p/i processing thats going on.

There is also a size issue, the SXRD is also a fair bit larger than the Sagem HD50, maybe its looks worse because of that? Arfster mentioned this and its a possibilty I've ignored I must admit although viewed from my seating position, I wuld have been able to spot the same defects in each screen quite easily and I'm pretty sure that there was a pq difference as opposed to simply seeing the defects bigger. Nah, scrub that, the Sagem did look better. I wish I had spent longer comparing the two, a couple of hours over a couple of evenings wasn't enough given the interest you guys are showing. Like I said, I'm not bothered by the (supposed) SD issue as the increased contrast more than makes up for any deficiencies but as always thats only my opinion and I'm taken aback by other folks interest in this point (I thought it a minor matter).

I noticed today that the SkyHD box puts out a 576i signal when using component, I'll try to compare that with the 576p signal through HDMI - maybe it will be better? (Away for a week so will be next weekend before I can test it fully).
Paul

[Tarbat]

Originally Posted by PaulB

The only settings I changed were contrast and brightness and then I left everything else at default. I then switched all the enhancements to off which produced a better picture than the default but still (in my mind) not upto the SD quality of the Sagem.

Try these settings and see what you think - http://www.avforums.com/forums/showt...03#post3741603

[devbod]

Originally Posted by PaulB

The Sagem originally had a fault with the SPDIF (although subsequently I managed to fix it myself)

Was this losing all output when switching source? If so could you tell me how you fixed it as mine is driving me nuts