Is Bluray Set to take the Market

[mjw1999]

First of all i have neither bluray or hddvd at present but i'm now starting to consider one of these.
i've been doing a little browsing and it seems aparrent to me that bluray seems to have a superior choice when it comes to software and hardware.
i will be looking at a high end player with full 1080p output (not 1080i progressive scanned then out put 1080p like the tosh machines are talked about doing.
i have been looking at this hidef format war for some time and up until now have had no preference, but can't help feel that brluray has turned a corner and is now starting to push the boat out.

[Jeff]

Blu-Ray is starting to get there slowly, hardware and software support is still poor but that should change sometime next year. Re 1080p, aren't you better off takeing 1080i and going to 1080p @48Hzvia a video processor like a Lumagen to avoid judder? The Pearl doesn't support 1080P/24 and 1080P 60Hz it going to give you judder.

[RobDickinson]

Originally Posted by mjw1999

i will be looking at a high end player with full 1080p output (not 1080i progressive scanned then out put 1080p like the tosh machines are talked about doing.

Samsung BR player doesnt nativly decode in 1080p but upscales. Not sure about the PS3. Sony's stand alone player is the samsung reboxed.

Tosh's latest Hogh end HD-DVD player outputs 1080p, again not sure if thats native or scaled.

Bluray & HD-DVD TBH are both almost identical.

[MrR]

Originally Posted by mjw1999

First of all i have neither bluray or hddvd at present but i'm now starting to consider one of these.
i've been doing a little browsing and it seems aparrent to me that bluray seems to have a superior choice when it comes to software and hardware.
i will be looking at a high end player with full 1080p output (not 1080i progressive scanned then out put 1080p like the tosh machines are talked about doing.
i have been looking at this hidef format war for some time and up until now have had no preference, but can't help feel that brluray has turned a corner and is now starting to push the boat out.

I think a lot will be down to availability, capability and price of hardware. In the HD-DVD camp you've got the Toshiba and the XBOX 360 addon, Blue-Ray the Samsung and PS3 (Spring 2007).

Price wise the HD-DVD hardware wins hands down at the moment, the launch of the PS3 in spring 2007 IMO will probably push things more towards BD.

The reviews of the XBOX 360 addon and PS3 for HD playback seem pretty good so it's down to personal preference.

Neither camp are being pro-active in marketing the products, strange that the HD-DVD camp have not stolen a march on the delays of the PS3 and BlueRay available players. Outside forums such as these the general public wouldn't know that there is a war!!.

Most of the film major studios look to be going towards the BlueRay route for now.

I'll probably go for the Xbox 360 addon for now (again price!! to try HD-DVD movies) and the PS/3 for games and to test the BD movie playback before I finally decide which type of stand-alone player to get.

[Ian_S]

It's a very tough one to call at this point.

In terms of hardware I think most people expected HD-DVD (certainly in the UK) to wipe the floor with Blu-ray having the 2 new 2nd gen Toshiba's and the Xbox addon. However, it now looks unlikely that we'll see any significant quantity of Toshiba's this year and the addon is in very short supply as well.

Blu-ray may well have more manufacturers producing kit (just about everything HD-DVD related is Toshiba in one form or another) however apart from the PS3 which isn't available over here, it's all rather over priced. Blu-ray manufacturers are also incapable of producing any volume, hence I think the lack of major price shifts. We still don't have all the 1st generation models out, Pioneer, Sony and LG are all yet to appear. However, I think once they do all appear and we get Xmas '06 out of the way, supply on both sides will start to improve.

This is when I think we'll start to see the Blu-ray equipment come down in price, and also it should not take very long in 2007 for 2nd generation machines to arrive, which will help further reduce the over inflated BD prices. Of course, PS3 should also arrive in March.

The start of 2007 will be key, if any other manufacturers start producing HD-DVD players, I think the CES show will be where they'll announce it. The late to market BD players had better have arrived by then too or that will be rather embarassing. Blu-ray are also going to need some new announcements as well...

In terms of software, much of which you think is the best catalogue will be down to personal preference in films. Again BD has the potential with more studios to eclipse HD-DVD, but so far none of the really big guns have appeared, although personally I find more films in the BD camp that I like compared to HD-DVD.

The big issue with software is region coding, Blu-ray has it, so far HD-DVD does not. IF we take BD first, Europe is Region B, USA is Region A, forget the old DVD regions for high definition discs. However, whilst BD has region coding it's totally unclear as to how studios are using it. Sony are only using it so far on certain 'new' titles released in the U.S. This means a fair number of Sony US titles play on UK machines. Warner may be doing the same. It's not clear how Disney and Fox are coding their titles... bottom line confusing.

HD-DVD is currently region free, and Toshiba have promised (who knows if they'll keep it) that existing machines will remain region free, which I believe includes the upcoming E1/XE1 players. Microsoft haven't made any commitment to keep the Xbox region free so far. The other important fact to consider is that this also means that the currently available discs are also region free, as such, even if future players get region coding, because these discs can't be identified to a region, they should also remain region free for their lifetime.

The HD-DVD camp is however looking at implmenting region coding, and most people expect it to arrive at some point, partly to get more studio support (the likes of Fox look unlikely to ever support anything region free at this stage) but more likely to keep local distributors happy. Who's going to pay for distribution rights for a format where you can freely import for less...??

Which brings us neatly onto disc supply in the UK. Both formats are now on the shelves in limited numbers. Whether this increases much remains to be seen. Certainly both sides appear to have messed up over here for Xmas sales. PS3 won't be available, BD players are very expensive, Xbox addon numbers look very low, and you might see a handful of Toshiba E1's before year end but only just. BD studios seem reluctant to release much without the PS3 and sales of the Samsung/Panasonic players are unlikely to spur a re-think. If the Xbox addon launch numbers are as low as it seems, they're unlikely to generate massive sales either. The number of Toshibas available this year may ironically be on a par with the number of BD players, very few... So, with HD-DVD, as it's region free and you can import from the U.S. there may not yet be much incentive for a fast growing HD-DVD catalogue to start with either. But at least you can import freely without worrying about whether the disc will play or not.

All in all in the UK, it's been an interesting first 5 minutes of the first half of the match, but the score remains a rather tepid 0-0 with neither side showing much ambition or getting into their stride. Lets hope the game improves from here...

[Nuff_HiDeff]

Is Bluray Set to take the Market - err, nope.

In the states, the PS3 was said to be the "end of the war", yet since it started shipping, the Bluray movie sales figures have not rocketed up as forecast - which seems to indicate that PS3 owners are not, on the whole, bluray movie buyers. And the PS3 won't be launched in the UK till March. I saw one store on Tottenham Court Road trying to sell one for 999 pounds yesterday - when someone asked if it was the display unit, the salesperson said no, but that he "sure" he's getting some from the states on Tuesday or Wednesday.

HD DVD continues to have better movie sales, and the new HD DVD players again offer better value and functionality than equivalent Bluray players.

[Rasczak]

On paper BluRay has everything...studio support, consumer electrics producers and a sizeable chunk of PC OEM suppliers. The BluRay Association thought it would sweep away the competition before it ever launched and we would have one format supported by all. What they didn't account for though was HD DVD launching at a bargain price, backed by Microsoft and with exclusive studio support of it's own (Universal, Studio Canal, Pathe etc). Indeed it's interesting to read the comments made by Panasonic (in the latest HCC for example) on just how taken aback they were that the format war went ahead.

The net effect of this is that BluRay has been playing catchup ever since the formats launched. HD DVD launched with reference releases sporting next gen audio and brilliant picture quality. BluRay launched with dolby digital and picture sporting compression artifacts. Ergo all the early adopters jumped into HD DVD. That's not to say many haven't/won't also jump into the BluRay camp as well though

The question is will 'joe public' be persuaded to adopt either format? My gut reaction is no - not in the short term at least. The PS3 and Xbox 360 will do alot to introduce people to the new formats - but ultimately the PSP did very little for UMD - I can see the new formats being similarly niche in their appeal.

Ultimately I don't believe either format can possible achieve that 'killer' blow now - both formats are deeply entrenched. Both have exclusive studio support. Both have console support. Both are now heavily support on the PC OEM front.

Yes, BluRay has more consumer electric support - but with all units priced at £600+ that is hardly a massive issue at present. Likewise for studio support - BluRay has more backing but then the portfolio of released titles are fairly poor at present. And both CE and studio support will bend with the wind when it comes to shifting support.

All in all then the only way I can really see things going is toward universal players. All the CE companies are denying this at present despite 'leaks' from LG, Pioneer, Samsung and others - but few can doubt they are all looking at how successful Sony was with the 'dual' model employed with DVD recordables.

[Ian_S]

Originally Posted by Rasczak

...HD DVD launched with reference releases sporting next gen audio and brilliant picture quality. BluRay launched with dolby digital and picture sporting compression artifacts. Ergo all the early adopters jumped into HD DVD. That's not to say many haven't/won't also jump into the BluRay camp as well though

We're going to have to disagree on the audio. TrueHD usage on HD-DVD has been sparing. Most Warner releases have only got Dolby Digital Plus 640kbps soundtracks which are equivalent to 640kbps 'standard' Dolby Digital ones. All the Warner TrueHD tracks thus far have been of the 16bit 48KHz variety as well. I believe Paramount have bucked that trend by using 1.5Mbps on Diolby digital Plus, which is to be applauded.

However, in the Blu-ray camp Sony have treated us to pretty much across the board uncompressed lossless PCM tracks, as have Buena Vista who've even thrown in a couple of 24 bit masters too, which quality wise is identical to the studio master. Fox have included lossless DTS-HD pretty much across the board as well, although so far you'd have a job hearing it in its full glory. Now you might argue that Sony and BV have done that at the expense of PQ when using MPEG-2 and 25GB discs,(Fox haven't, using AVC and DTS-HD MA which is compressed but lossless) and you may have a point, but, in terms of appealling to the audio nuts, so far the Blu-ray exclusive studios have gone much further than the HD-DVD camp at delivering higher end audio.

Ultimately I don't believe either format can possible achieve that 'killer' blow now - both formats are deeply entrenched. Both have exclusive studio support. Both have console support. Both are now heavily support on the PC OEM front.

Hardly on the latter. Still no PC burner drives available for HD-DVD, and the only ones announced are by Toshiba and are laptop drives for which samples are expected by the end of the year. Sony are shipping (and have been for about 6 months in the UK now, they're now on the second udpates) both desktops and laptops with burning drives, and standalone drives are available from Sony, Pioneer, LG/Hitachi and Lite-on now, with others announced and expected imminently. The only other announced PC HD-DVD drive is the HP external ROM only unit, at twice the price of the Xbox add-on. Presumably a lot to pay for the bundled software given that the Xbox drive will attach quite happily to a PC.

Yes, BluRay has more consumer electric support - but with all units priced at £600+ that is hardly a massive issue at present. Likewise for studio support - BluRay has more backing but then the portfolio of released titles are fairly poor at present. And both CE and studio support will bend with the wind when it comes to shifting support.

Which is where you totally contradict your statement about everyone now being deeply entrenched. As I said previously, whether one catalogue seems stronger material-wise depends entirely on your film preference. Numbers wise there's very little in it and BOTH are paltry compared to the available films on DVD even if you combined them.

All in all then the only way I can really see things going is toward universal players. All the CE companies are denying this at present despite 'leaks' from LG, Pioneer, Samsung and others - but few can doubt they are all looking at how successful Sony was with the 'dual' model employed with DVD recordables.

I really don't know what to make of dual format players this time round. With recordable DVD it was much simpler in that there was a common target format, DVD to be read by one type of player. this time round we have two with totally different player characteristics making it a fair bit more complex. However, this time round the silicon manufacturers are moving at a much faster pace... It's less than clear apart from removing some uncertainty from consumers what impact dual players would have on the overall issue. I think it would be better to have one format, however I don't see how we'd get there rght now. I guess we all have to hope that BD and HD-DVD don't go the way of SACD/DVD-Audio which universal players did nothing to help.

[Rasczak]

With respect Ian - I am not about to turn this into another BluRay v HD DVD argument - especially with someone who doesn't have HD DVD to compare yet or a 'AV' BluRay solution.

Originally Posted by Ian_S

We're going to have to disagree on the audio.

As I say then we'll disagree. Needless to say, specs aside, the DD+ tracks sound significantly better than the DD ones I've compared. And Dolby TrueHD just leaves both standing in the cold. Linear PCM is very good as well though.

All I will say is that as an actual end user, as opposed to one who reads specs, HD DVD delivers a hell of alot more soundwise at present.

[Ian_S]

Originally Posted by Rasczak

With respect Ian - I am not about to turn this into another BluRay v HD DVD argument - especially with someone who doesn't have HD DVD to compare yet or a 'AV' BluRay solution.


As I say then we'll disagree. Needless to say, specs aside, the DD+ tracks sound significantly better than the DD ones I've compared. And Dolby TrueHD just leaves both standing in the cold. Linear PCM is very good as well though.

All I will say is that as an actual end user, as opposed to one who reads specs, HD DVD delivers a hell of alot more soundwise at present.

Priceless, as usual when you run out of logic you revert to the same tired playground argument.

[Rasczak]

Originally Posted by Ian_S

Priceless, as usual when you run out of logic you revert to the same tired playground argument.

Not really...it's called avoiding hijacking the thread...

[andythescientis]

Originally Posted by Ian_S

I guess we all have to hope that BD and HD-DVD don't go the way of SACD/DVD-Audio which universal players did nothing to help.

IMO the problems SACD/DVD-Audio have has had is more to do with the fact that Joe Bloggs simply isn't interested in High audio quality rather than format uncertainty. This is abundantly clear by the MP3 market. And i have to say when the majority of the population seem to listen to tosh like girls aloud i can hardly blame them for not wanting higher quality, low bit rate mp3 probably helps soften the catawalling....

Anyway sorry for the slight off topic comment

[Rasczak]

Originally Posted by andythescientis

IMO the problems SACD/DVD-Audio have haws had is more to do with the fact that Joe Bloggs simply isn't interested in High audio quality. This is abundantly clear by the MP3 market. And i have to say when the majority of the population seem to listen to tosh like girls aloud i can hardly blame them for not wanting higher quality, low bit rate mp3 probably helps soften the catawalling....

Tell me about it - I am getting sooo sick of my son playing "Something Kinda Ooo"...

...seriously though SACD and DVD-Audio are potentially good markers for the success of HD DVD/BluRay. I would suggest that the new formats will be more successful than the audio side - alot more people will be able to see the benefit on HDTV than have audio facilities to enjoy lossless music. However I have my doubts they will be as successful as DVD - ergo something in between - a popular semi-niche market?

Either way does it matter to much? Even the 'failed' SACD/DVD-Audio formats are still supported - if the same goes for the high def video formats then we will still get movies. And maybe that would be better? Instead of discs crammed with extras at the expense of quality perhaps the highest PQ and AQ will be become the standard?

[andythescientis]

I've no doubt you're right, HD formats, be it HD-DVD or BD will be somewhere inbetween DVD and SACD/DVD-A in terms of success. We're already seeing alot more software released on the HD formats than is comparably with the music side of things. I do whoever agree with you that i can't see HD being mainstream for at least 3-5 years when the current crop of cheap DVD players start being replaced. What's the average life expectancy of the lazers in the cheapo players?

The only caviete i'd add to that is, this is dependant on the studio's who always have the power to kill off DVD if they desire, with preferencial releases onto the better protected HD formats. Which IMO is why they have pushed forward with the new formats so quickly in the life cycle of DVDs. I doubt however many will have the stomach to cut their noses off to spite their pockets, by stopping DVD releases.

[micks_address]

i'd like to take the point up about the ps3 sales not hiking blue ray sales.. i think its far to early yet to judge that given the lack of units of the ps3 going to retail... one thing for sure, its putting blue ray players in peoples homes, so if someone wants hd at an affordable price the ps3 seems to be heading the right way... and even people who bought the ps3 for games only are likely to want to try a hd disc as some point...

the ps3 is a major carrot in the blue ray camp.. i dont think anyone can deny that...

i'm not sure if the samecan be said for the x box 360 hd drive as its an expensive enough accessory, and the xbox is reportely a lot louder than the ps3, which is an important factor.. my sky plus box already does my head in, even with quieter fans installed