Digital Switchover. I'm confused. Help!

[Paul O]

Hi all,

I've been pondering this since I saw an ad the other day, and I've a few questions;

1) When analog gets switched off, what will replace it? Pirate TV?

2) Why?

3) Are they switching off analog radio? If so WHY WHY WHY?!! This will really annoy me. I don't want to replace my DVD reciever, my walkman, my phone, my bedroom stereo, the one in the kitchen or the one in the car with a DAB one! At least with analog if the signal is a bit patchy in the car, you still get a signal. With DAB, its all or nothing. Largely nothing. Analog has been fine since the dark ages, and you can even get mini wind-up ones. Plus, does anyone need crystal clear, super quality radio? Really?! FM sounds peachy to me!:cool:

4) What will replace it if its been switched off? Pirate radio?


Finally, When is it all happening, and why are they doing it (especially radio). I won't be bother with a new car, dvd or stereo for the bedroom if its in the next few years as all the audio eqiuipment will heading for the bin shortly afterwards, since there aint much with DAB nowadays. :mad: Do any car manufacturers actually sell DAB radios integrated into their models? I've heard 2012 for switch off?, which is only 5-6 years away. :eek:

Thanks guys.

[andykn]

1/ When analogue is switched off half the space will be used to bump up the freeview signal so as many people who can get the main analogue channels will get them via freeview. Most people who can't get Freeview now will get all of it after switch off. The other half of the space will be sold by OFCOM on governemnt oprders, probably to Mobile phone networks.

2/ Why? So more people can get more channels

I don't know about analogue radio

[sbowler]

The real reason for switching to Digital is Money!!! the UK government will sell of the unused frequencies. Now since Digital takes up less bandwidth and uses a different frequency they can sell of the analogue frequenceis to the highest bidder.

[g_kitchen]

The real reason for switching to Digital is Money!!! the UK government will sell of the unused frequencies. Now since Digital takes up less bandwidth and uses a different frequency they can sell of the analogue frequenceis to the highest bidder.

Such as?

[Geofbob]

Hi all, 3) Are they switching off analog radio?



The short answer to your question is "no" - there are no current plans to turn off analogue radio. This Ofcom web-page provides more detailed info which may be of interest to you - http://www.ofcom.org.uk/media/news/2007/04/nr_20070417

[Sonic67]

Do any car manufacturers actually sell DAB radios integrated into their models? I've heard 2012 for switch off?, which is only 5-6 years away. :eek:

Thanks guys.


Analogue radio will continue for years and there are no plans to switch it off. Both Vauxhall and the new Mini and others can have DAB built in as an option.

[Sonic67]

Such as?

Whoever wants them. They can carry lots of digital frequencies for HD digital broadcasts, mobile phone signals and others.

[Pezerinno]

Just out of interest does anyone know what sort of figures the government will get for selling the unused frequencies?

[Sonic67]

The frequencies in that area are very popular for a lot of firms. I think having them freed up has been compared to suddenly having some fresh real estate in the middle of Mayfair.

[CTID]

g_kitchen, you dig up a 2 year message and with your first ever post on Avforums, you come up with

"such as"

I am sure you don't mean to be, but it is very, very funny. It's a bit like a Douglas Adams scenario, like the guy who chases Arthur Dent for a millenium just to call him a twit.

[reslfj]

Just out of interest does anyone know what sort of figures the government will get for selling the unused frequencies?

"Well over £ 1000 mill."* for 15-16 channels - one time only.

This is a one time income of £ 1-2 per capita per channel.

It is simply NOT true that money is the reason. The reason is that TV may not need all the frequencies and other use of the spectrum may benefit society.

Pricing is just a way to select the best use of the only 15-16 frequencies.
Other countries use a less commercial approach, but all has to change to Digital before 2015**.

UK UHF frequency use is somewhat (very) wasteful in a digital world.


Lars :)

* UK news November 2007

** From Dublin to Vladivostok, from Norway to Oman.

[m.stephens]

It is simply NOT true that money is the reason. The reason is that TV may not need all the frequencies and other use of the spectrum may benefit society.



Clearly you haven't been following the terrestrial HDTV carry-on in the UK. It's money !

[waekyns]

From what i heard Digital Radio is costing to much and several local stations are closing..

I think analogue radio is here to stay..

[tobs]

Anyway I've never heard a Dab broadcast that comes close to a decent FM one!.Long may it remain (or are my ears deceiving me now I'm 60+)

[alan1572]

Anyway I've never heard a Dab broadcast that comes close to a decent FM one!.Long may it remain (or are my ears deceiving me now I'm 60+)

i think i read somewhere that a dab channel can be used for more than 1 station, the more stations that are on this channel then the worse the quality, may be wrong as i have the memory of a wotsit.

[Sonic67]

The Dab stations are sent together as a multiplex on a single frequency. The information for all are delivered to the DAB radio which then uses the information for the station you want and ignores the information for the other stations.

Having more stations on a multiplex means a lower bit rate for each station.

[alan1572]

The Dab stations are sent together as a multiplex on a single frequency. The information for all are delivered to the DAB radio which then uses the information for the station you want and ignores the information for the other stations.

Having more stations on a multiplex means a lower bit rate for each station.
that's almost the same as what i said:)

[baw_heed]

In answer to the "it's money" posts, resljf is right - it's not mainly about money.

Are M Stephens and Sbowler arguing that the main reason for switchover is simply money and not the fact it will allow the 25% of the UK who can't get freeview at the moment to have it at switchover? Are they saying it is mainly about money even thought DTT offers better picture sound and audio, more services including data etc?

To focus solely on the fact that there is money involved is simplistic reading of this. It woul happen anyway even if the government stood to make nothing from it. The fact that they will make money is an incidental big fat pay day for the government but nowhere near the primary reason for this process.

If the UK government where not replacing the analogue infrastructure with a digital service, this website would be full of people asking why the UK has second class broadcasting when the rest of the world is switching to digital.

It's very cynical and ill informed to suggest otherwise.

Clearly you haven't been following the terrestrial HDTV carry-on in the UK. It's money !

[alan1572]

indeed, also we should get better mobile phone coverage aswell due to the phone companies buying the air space (i think)

[eddgreen25]

im one of the 25% that get freeview
When the switch over happens will i get freeview?
ariel installers will make money goverment will tv stores and sky
In answer to the "it's money" posts, resljf is right - it's not mainly about money.

Are M Stephens and Sbowler arguing that the main reason for switchover is simply money and not the fact it will allow the 25% of the UK who can't get freeview at the moment to have it at switchover? Are they saying it is mainly about money even thought DTT offers better picture sound and audio, more services including data etc?

To focus solely on the fact that there is money involved is simplistic reading of this. It woul happen anyway even if the government stood to make nothing from it. The fact that they will make money is an incidental big fat pay day for the government but nowhere near the primary reason for this process.

If the UK government where not replacing the analogue infrastructure with a digital service, this website would be full of people asking why the UK has second class broadcasting when the rest of the world is switching to digital.

It's very cynical and ill informed to suggest otherwise.

[Sonic67]

It's a good point. Why should we still have five channels of analogue when the rest of the world is going digital. I got cable as I was fed up of the limited choice on offer. Analogue is too outdated now.

[alan1572]

im one of the 25% that get freeview
When the switch over happens will i get freeview?
ariel installers will make money goverment will tv stores and sky

anyone that gets freeview now will get after the switch-over, as will alot of people who are currently unable to get it as the power will be boosted,
i don't see sky getting much more business due to the switch over as people will get freeview, and if they don't want/can't get freeview then they can make the 1 off payment and get free sat.
TV stores have been selling built in freeview tv's for quite some time so i don't see a rush there, not when you can get a good freeview box for £30, ans as i'm a aerial installer i hope you are correct about that bit:)

[eddgreen25]

anyone that gets freeview now will get after the switch-over, as will alot of people who are currently unable to get it as the power will be boosted,
i don't see sky getting much more business due to the switch over as people will get freeview, and if they don't want/can't get freeview then they can make the 1 off payment and get free sat.
TV stores have been selling built in freeview tv's for quite some time so i don't see a rush there, not when you can get a good freeview box for £30, ans as i'm a aerial installer i hope you are correct about that bit:)
So next year when winter hill transmitter turns of i will get freeview maybe
To install freeat £80
Now thers freesat. Sky wont get all there own way
digital tv is great we understand that at a price
over 75s will be ok as long as they are getting certain benifits so it wont be easy

[alan1572]

So next year when winter hill transmitter turns of i will get freeview maybe
To install freeat £80
Now thers freesat. Sky wont get all there own way
digital tv is great we understand that at a price
over 75s will be ok as long as they are getting certain benifits so it wont be easy


you WILL get freeview if you get it now.

[morili hochili]

g_kitchen, you dig up a 2 year message and with your first ever post on Avforums, you come up with

"such as"

I am sure you don't mean to be, but it is very, very funny. It's a bit like a Douglas Adams scenario, like the guy who chases Arthur Dent for a millenium just to call him a twit.

g_kitchen don't be put off by this - it is hopefully meant to be friendly:rotfl:

[robtek70]

I agree with the comment that the quailty of freeview is better than analogue tv on most channels. I live in the Winter Hill area and am on a communial arial and several time a month I loose a lot of the freeview channels but can still pick up the analogue ones. Once the switch over has happened the communial ariel will be switched off and this will mean I will loose all TV unless I have an arial installed. Cheacking with local installers I have been quoted fantasticly high prices to do so. Several years ago when I first heard about the switch off I enquired and was quoted just under £50 now that the switch off has began they want in the region of £250 to do the same job.

Having taken early retirement on health grounds I can't afford such prices so it seems that TV will no longer be an option for me once the analogue signal is switched off. There must be many people in the same position as myself who need to either have a new arial installed and/or buy a freeview box who simply can't afford one so the switch off will mean these people will also loose the ability to watch TV. I do think the government could do more to help people on low income through the switch over period as they will be making a very large amount of monies out of the selling off the spare frequencies and VAT on the sale of boxes, TV and arials installation needed.

[alan1572]

I agree with the comment that the quailty of freeview is better than analogue tv on most channels. I live in the Winter Hill area and am on a communial arial and several time a month I loose a lot of the freeview channels but can still pick up the analogue ones. Once the switch over has happened the communial ariel will be switched off and this will mean I will loose all TV unless I have an arial installed. Cheacking with local installers I have been quoted fantasticly high prices to do so. Several years ago when I first heard about the switch off I enquired and was quoted just under £50 now that the switch off has began they want in the region of £250 to do the same job.

Having taken early retirement on health grounds I can't afford such prices so it seems that TV will no longer be an option for me once the analogue signal is switched off. There must be many people in the same position as myself who need to either have a new arial installed and/or buy a freeview box who simply can't afford one so the switch off will mean these people will also loose the ability to watch TV. I do think the government could do more to help people on low income through the switch over period as they will be making a very large amount of monies out of the selling off the spare frequencies and VAT on the sale of boxes, TV and arials installation needed.

where abouts are you? i work in Lancs fitting aerials and have NEVER charged more than £145 for an aerial and that was a Unix 32 on a 12" steel pole with 18 inch T+K brackets and a long run of cable.

[Sonic67]

I agree with the comment that the quailty of freeview is better than analogue tv on most channels. I live in the Winter Hill area and am on a communial arial and several time a month I loose a lot of the freeview channels but can still pick up the analogue ones. Once the switch over has happened the communial ariel will be switched off and this will mean I will loose all TV unless I have an arial installed.

Winter Hill is currently operating at a fraction of it's power:

http://www.ukfree.tv/fullstory.php?storyid=1107051122

The digital signals are currently broadcast at low power (this will change as switchover happens) to prevent interference with the existing analogue signals. Thankfully most Freeview boxes can work with these weak signals. The following list shows the strength of the digital signal compared to the analogue for the 80 Freeview transmitters.

Winter Hill - 1.83%

After analogue switch off the digital signal will be about 50 times stronger. Are you sure you will need to change your aerial after that? I imagine a metal coat hanger in the back of the set might do it.

[i_heart_3D]

I'm sorry to say but FM radio will be switched off and is not safe for years to come as someone said. Along with AM,LW etc.

FM is an incredible waste of limited bandwidth in the air.

However the problem is not with the switch over it's with what is replacing it. Current MPEG transmissions are only about 4 Mbps but this encoding format is designed to work at 15Mbps. It works, but badly, at 4Mbps. If only they had a few less channels (QVC, bid-TV could go) and a bit higher data rate and freeview wouldn't have so many nasty artifacts as it does at the moment.

[alan1572]

I'm sorry to say but FM radio will be switched off and is not safe for years to come as someone said. Along with AM,LW etc.

FM is an incredible waste of limited bandwidth in the air.

However the problem is not with the switch over it's with what is replacing it. Current MPEG transmissions are only about 4 Mbps but this encoding format is designed to work at 15Mbps. It works, but badly, at 4Mbps. If only they had a few less channels (QVC, bid-TV could go) and a bit higher data rate and freeview wouldn't have so many nasty artifacts as it does at the moment.

indeed, but what with the amount they pay for the privilage to broadcast i don't see that happening:(, whilst riviting for some the Parliment channel could also go.

[i_heart_3D]

indeed, but what with the amount they pay for the privilage to broadcast i don't see that happening:(, whilst riviting for some the Parliment channel could also go.

That's the sad truth, it is about money. Bid TV and the likes probably are the safest of all the channels because they make money. FM radio probably doens't make enough money to stay, so it will most probably go.BBC parliment is paid for by the BBC and therefore us. That means that you and me are paying for that, which is, in someways, worse. I agree it could go, but it is probably very cheap to make (again with the money). I think free sat maybe the way to go?

[alan1572]

That's the sad truth, it is about money. Bid TV and the likes probably are the safest of all the channels because they make money. FM radio probably doens't make enough money to stay, so it will most probably go.BBC parliment is paid for by the BBC and therefore us. That means that you and me are paying for that, which is, in someways, worse. I agree it could go, but it is probably very cheap to make (again with the money). I think free sat maybe the way to go?

i'm not sure if Freesat will be a good or bad thing for BSkyB, on the one hand people will be glad to get the free channels and not pay for the sky channels, but on the other, people may start like this and then "upgrade" to a pay package, one thing is for sure sky know how to make money.

[Sonic67]

I'm sorry to say but FM radio will be switched off and is not safe for years to come as someone said. Along with AM,LW etc.

Err no it won't. Maybe at some far off date in the future but as things stand at the moment it's DAB that has the uncertain future. Unless you can give us a link to what you know.

FM may have old technology or take a lot of bandwidth but who exactly will pay for this bandwidth anyway? When analogue TV is gone there's going to be plenty of bandwidth available there. There are only so many people willing to buy airwaves.

Also nearly everyone has AM/FM radios. Even now take up of DAB in cars is tiny. Do you really want to be the minister making all those radios obsolete overnight?

It may be the case that on some far off date in the future something will be done but the questioner was asking whether analogue radio would be switched off with analogue TV and no it isn't and neither has a decision been made as to when it will if ever.

[Sonic67]

FM radio probably doens't make enough money to stay, so it will most probably go.
FM radio makes a lot of money. Local Commercial stations pay around £100 000 a year to broadcast regionally on their particular frequency. They recoup the money by carrying advertising. Advertisers advertise on the radio station as they look at the listening figures for that station. The more listeners the more the station can charge for advertising. Advertising money pays for the frequency. Lots of FM radio stations means lots of income for the Government.

[Sonic67]

indeed, but what with the amount they pay for the privilage to broadcast i don't see that happening:(, whilst riviting for some the Parliment channel could also go.The Parliment channel is part of having free and open Government and being answerable to the people. It's not there to make money it's part of public service broadcasting.

[alan1572]

The Parliment channel is part of having free and open Government and being answerable to the people. It's not there to make money it's part of public service broadcasting.
it's lucky then that i have free speech and can say that i think it's a waste of space

[Sonic67]

I think Cbeebies, CBBC and CITV is but then that might be because I don't have kids. I watch something else instead.

[alan1572]

I think Cbeebies, CBBC and CITV is but then that might be because I don't have kids. I watch something else instead.
i've heard those channels are great if you have kids as you can neglect them while you get drunk err i mean get on with the house work.

[i_heart_3D]

FM radio makes a lot of money. Local Commercial stations pay around £100 000 a year to broadcast regionally on their particular frequency. They recoup the money by carrying advertising. Advertisers advertise on the radio station as they look at the listening figures for that station. The more listeners the more the station can charge for advertising. Advertising money pays for the frequency. Lots of FM radio stations means lots of income for the Government.

Well you'd think so wouldn't you but check out GCAP's falling share price over the last 10 years. (GCAP is the UK's largest commercial radio station provider).

[Sonic67]

This would be the GCAP losing money as a result of DAB?

GCap Media said it will axe the home of Planet Rock and theJazz because the Digital Audio Broadcasting (DAB) platform has not been a money spinner for the firm.

GCap's newly-appointed boss Fru Hazlitt said in a presentation (pdf) that listeners were not voting with their ears when it comes to the take-up of digital-only radio stations. She quoted industry number cruncher Rajar saying that DAB accounts for only nine per cent of radio listening, while digital-only stations reel in less than four per cent of UK radio fans.


http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/12/gcap_cans_dab/

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6951020&postcount=57

With DAB...
Hooking up to a local multiplex can cost you between £60,000 and £90,000 per year which increases to maybe £100,000 for regional coverage. For nationwide broadcasting you could be parting with a million, maybe more. That might seem a lot but it’s about the same cost as FM radio transmission.

The difference is that your broadcasts go out to 15% of the area’s listeners on DAB whereas the FM money covers the rest for the same cash. That makes DAB between three and six times more expensive per listener.

What is needed is an announcement that analogue radio will be switched off so that people will be pushed into digital take up. The date could be a decade or more away. Until then many tend to stick with analogue.

[Ralph7]

Are they saying it is mainly about money even thought DTT offers better picture sound and audio, more services including data etc?
It's very cynical and ill informed to suggest otherwise.
DTT CAN offer better picture and sound but it doesnt always, it depends on the channel broadcasting how good a quality you get.
i have sky and i can clearly see many channels broadcast in a low bitrate which gives a worse quality picture than analogue.
same when im at my parents house on their freeview box.

its not a black and white argument, and it would be very cynical and ill informed to suggest otherwise ;)

[Cliff]

FM switch off? No time soon!

Look at where the advertising revenue is. Its on those morning shows, and 99% of people are listening to them on FM in their cars.

Switch off FM and Heart, Capital et al are in trouble!

[hanmer]

Proposed digital radio switchover by 2020??......

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7470460.stm