Apple's positive stance on Blu Ray [Archive]

nehalem

06-08-2006, 12:04 AM

http://www.dvdnewsroom.com/news/breaking-inside-apple-on-blu-ray-macpro-and-apple%E2%80%99s-media-center-strategy-what-to-expect-and-not-to-expect-at-wwdc/

Copied below

Q. Where do you stand on Blu-ray?

A. We’re exceptionally committed to Blu-ray. A battleground issue in 07.

Q. Why Blu-ray?

A. Superior storage. Costs less.

Q. When will a Mac ship with a Blu-ray drive installed?

A. Some are hopeful with Oct/Nov. Doubt it. 100% Blu-ray will be built-to-order in January 07.

Q. Why the delay?

A. Consumers are very nervous and confused about these formats. Why do they need it? What are the benefits? Originally, Blu-ray was a slam-dunk. But HD-DVD gained traction. After the launch of the PS3, the general consensus is Blu-ray will be named the winner. The brand name ‘Blu-ray’ will be stronger. Better awareness for consumers. Currently, HD-DVD has the edge by name alone.

Q. Who will win, Blu-ray or HD-DVD?

A. (laughs) Blu-ray, of course. Reasons? Apple, Sony, Dell, HP, Disney, Fox. Better content and the PS3. If your computer and PS3 support Blu-ray, you’re obviously going to buy Blu-ray movies.

Q. Will new Powermacs, or Mac Pro’s, ship with Blu-ray?

A. Mac Pro? Not right away. January, like I said. Next week, Blu-ray support will be announced, all the features, and so on.

It may well be that the battle is fought and decided on the IT platform rather than from underneath the TV.

FOXCLOSE

06-08-2006, 12:15 AM

It may well be that the battle is fought and decided on the IT platform rather than from underneath the TV.

I think PCs and Home Entertainment are STILL two different markets.

Rasczak

06-08-2006, 6:56 AM

It may well be that the battle is fought and decided on the IT platform rather than from underneath the TV.
HD DVD could well have a robust showing on PCs - HP, Acer, NEC, Liteon, Toshiba and Hitachi account for a considerable weight behind the format. Indeed between them Toshiba (as TSST), Hitachi (as HLDS) and Liteon account for 60% of the optical storage market.

Add to this Vista is designed to be integrated with HD DVD and Microsoft are allegedly paying OEMs to use the format (http://www.engadget.com/2005/12/29/microsoft-to-pay-up-to-oems-for-using-hd-dvd/). Then all in all HD DVD could be at it's strongest on the PC.

Mr.D

06-08-2006, 8:29 AM

In what strange dimension is blu-ray "cheaper"?

Steve.EX

06-08-2006, 8:38 AM

In what strange dimension is blu-ray "cheaper"?
In the same dimension that betamax ruled the roost.

mattrixdesign2

06-08-2006, 8:41 AM

Very confident statement on Bluray.

I think it will succeed as a Console/PC/IT storage platfrom, but not convinced it will succeed as the main movie format - who knows - Dual format players may go some way to improve the situation?

tryingtimes

06-08-2006, 9:25 AM

In what strange dimension is blu-ray "cheaper"?
I don't know but didn't someone mention that BR software was actually on average lower than HD-DVD.
Then there's the issue of Toshiba subsidising the players - I guess this is another issue we're going to have to wait and see on.

Just before launch of both systems it seemed clear that BR was going to be the dearer system, but with hopefully technical superiority. But maybe that was just based on Toshiba prices versus the Sony prices. Who knows.

rover2002

06-08-2006, 9:34 AM

I don't know but didn't someone mention that BR software was actually on average lower than HD-DVD.
Then there's the issue of Toshiba subsidising the players - I guess this is another issue we're going to have to wait and see on.

Just before launch of both systems it seemed clear that BR was going to be the dearer system, but with hopefully technical superiority. But maybe that was just based on Toshiba prices versus the Sony prices. Who knows.

You mean Samsung?

AgentCool

06-08-2006, 9:41 AM

That was one of the most laughable appraisals of the Blu-Ray format I have yet read. Then again, could you expect any less from Apple?

For a start the "costs less" statement is a lie so blatant it's almost retarded. All the BD supporters keep banging on about is the PS3 so it sounds to me like they're very worried about the integrity of the format when it clearly can't win without it.

If this format war is resolved on the IT front as opposed to that of Home Cinema it's still hard to see Blu-Ray winning. I mean, Apple has little influence on the mainstream computer market and the same applies to HP and Dell who, at the end of the day, are both companies building machines running under Microsoft operating systems.

I can honestly say I would like Blu-Ray better if the companies behind it weren't so arrogant. It's an insult to the intelligence of the consumer.

tryingtimes

06-08-2006, 9:46 AM

Yes it would be nice if the winning format was based on being technologically superior for a change, but I guess market share and business alliances hold as much of an influence.
If all Apple, Vaio, Dell and HP computers come with BRD and never HD-DVD, then I can see their argument.
Usually in the world of PCs price per GB would win, but there's certainly some other factors involved this time around.

Rasczak

06-08-2006, 9:54 AM

If all Apple, Vaio, Dell and HP computers come with BRD and never HD-DVD, then I can see their argument.
HP abandoned their BluRay only stance last year and now officially supports both formats :clap: I should imagine this is the way many OEM producers will go and simply supply two drives - maybe a HD DVD-ROM and BD-ReWriter (or vice versa). Only in laptops (which are invariably single drive) will you have to choose one format or another. I'm sure in the fullness of time dual format drives will negate even this.

nehalem

06-08-2006, 10:01 AM

If this format war is resolved on the IT front as opposed to that of Home Cinema it's still hard to see Blu-Ray winning. I mean, Apple has little influence on the mainstream computer market and the same applies to HP and Dell who, at the end of the day, are both companies building machines running under Microsoft operating systems.

Lol - how can you say Dell and HP have no influence on the mainstream computer market :rotfl: - they ARE the mainstream computer market! Dell have something like a 19% market share in the US which is huge for IT! Apple are now 4th biggest providor since the halo effect created by ipod :http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/90401/apple-becomes-fourth-biggest-supplier-of-pcs.html,

The O/S question is an irrelevance, sure HD-DVD will have native support out the box with Vista although Gates is hinting that Blu-Ray might be supported too: http://lifestyle.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=5394 , but at worst you'll only have to install a driver.

Hmm never let facts get in the way of an discussion hey! ;)

AgentCool

06-08-2006, 10:15 AM

I think it's a bold statement to say Dell and HP "are" the mainstream computer market. I don't know anybody who owns a computer made by either company. Not only that, you have to remember that the figures of computer sales don't take into account non-branded, custom machines which almost certainly make up the bulk of actual computer ownership. People who build their own machines (or buy them from local builders) are always going to go for the cheaper format, especially when you can currently get a multi-format DVD re-writer brand-new for £20.

If the Home Cinema HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players are anything to go by, it's fair to say that HD-DVD computer drives will likely be significantly cheaper than Blu-Ray drives. People aren't going to care if Blu-Ray has a slightly higher storage capacity if the drives are too expensive. It's all about how many Gigabytes you get for your pound, not which is the 'trendiest' format. Remember when ZIP drives were all the rage?

Evil Engineer

06-08-2006, 10:25 AM

Nobody seriously thought Apple would support HD DVD or even go format neutral, did they ? :rotfl:

Not likely with Steve Jobs in charge and Microsoft's high profile role in the HD DVD camp these days.

Now, if Apple were to come up with a propper alternative to Microsoft's Media Center PCs, add in a Bluray drive and bung it all in a mini-mac form factor.

That could be a product with serious appeal to the iPod generation.

nehalem

06-08-2006, 10:54 AM

I think it's a bold statement to say Dell and HP "are" the mainstream computer market. I don't know anybody who owns a computer made by either company.

Stop it you're killing me :rotfl: So because you don't know anyone with an HP, Dell or another tier 1 manufactuer machine, that makes the article and industry standard GFK data incorrect then?

Not only that, you have to remember that the figures of computer sales don't take into account non-branded, custom machines which almost certainly make up the bulk of actual computer ownership.

Link to data to support this assumption?

Already the Blu-Ray burning VAIO at best is over £300 cheaper than almost identically spec'd HD-DVD read only Toshiba. May well be that standalone drives maybe closer in pricing, but as HD-DVD have yet to release a drive you can burn to (as far as I'm aware - but open to be corrected on that one), it would appear that you are paying more for less functionality

http://shopping.kelkoo.co.uk/ctl/do/search?siteSearchQuery=vaio+ar11s&catId=110001&fromform=true&x=0&y=0
http://computing.kelkoo.co.uk/b/a/sbs/113501/16368454.html

Now, if Apple were to come up with a propper alternative to Microsoft's Media Center PCs, add in a Bluray drive and bung it all in a mini-mac form factor.

Think Evil is right on the money with this one - the Mac Media Centre product has been touted for ages now, but nothing has been released. Would make a great launch product.

AgentCool

06-08-2006, 12:15 PM

Stop it you're killing me :rotfl: So because you don't know anyone with an HP, Dell or another tier 1 manufactuer machine, that makes the article and industry standard GFK data incorrect then?

It doesn't mean the data is incorrect, it means that the data can be interpreted whichever way you like because it is over-generalised. For a start, it doesn't take into account the nature of the market that is being analysed. After all, it could be (and probably is) businesses buying HP and Dell pre-built PCs on a mass-scale at a reduced cost who will have no use whatsoever for HD-DVD or Blu-Ray drives; at least not read-only ones anyway.

The fact I don't know anybody who owns a HP or Dell is a much better indicator to the nature of the mainstream, home market, which is what this discussion is about.

Then you ask for data regarding sales figures for custom built PCs. This is absolutely impossible to compile because it is custom built meaning that the parts are sold separately and thus a solid figure could never be attained. I mean, you've got a wide range of processors, literally hundreds of graphics cards, sound cards, motherboards and so on all requiring individual sales figures to even attempt to figure it out.

This is exactly why I believe, and always have believed, that industry data relating to the sales of computers for the entire market can never provide an accurate portrayal of the real nature of the market because the consumer base is too varied. Sure, there are people who buy their computers from PC World or Dell but the only way to find out how many people build their own is to actually get out there and look for yourself. All I know is the vast majority of people I know (over 80%) either build their own computer or get a local builder to do it for them.

As such, it is much more likely that it will be the unbranded computing community who decide which HD format succeeds, not Dell or HP.

Jeff

06-08-2006, 12:21 PM

The fact I don't know anybody who owns a HP or Dell is a much better indicator to the nature of the mainstream, home market, which is what this discussion is about.

Dell and HP are huge in the home market also, I know loads of people that have them at home.

AgentCool

06-08-2006, 12:23 PM

Dell and HP are huge in the home market also, I know loads of people that have them at home.

But still, like I said, they aren't the entire computer industry. That's the main point I'm trying to get across. You could never find out the exact figures but there are so many small dealers building computers and so many people building their own that to say Dell and HP control the computer market is absurd. It was just the original statement made earlier in this thread stating that Dell and HP "are" the computer market that got to me because I think everybody knows full well this isn't the case. The market is absolutely huge and when I read a statement like that I get the impression that market statistics would have us believe that practically everybody who owns a PC has one with a Dell or HP label on it.

EDIT: Actually, when I think about it the statistics on their own suggest that Dell and HP don't own the market. The statistics state that Dell have around 19% of the branded market and HP 3% less so 16%. Combined that comes to 35%. Now, if we were to make an educated guess that the branded manufacturers made up 50% or even 60% of the total market that puts Dell and HP's combined market share at around 17-21% which isn't anything even resembling dominance.

Croftanator

06-08-2006, 12:48 PM

Q. Why Blu-ray?

A. Superior storage. Costs less.

Not that we'd see it any cheaper. It'd just be bigger profits for them anyway :thumbsdow

NackNack

06-08-2006, 1:32 PM

But still, like I said, they aren't the entire computer industry. That's the main point I'm trying to get across. You could never find out the exact figures but there are so many small dealers building computers and so many people building their own that to say Dell and HP control the computer market is absurd. It was just the original statement made earlier in this thread stating that Dell and HP "are" the computer market that got to me because I think everybody knows full well this isn't the case. The market is absolutely huge and when I read a statement like that I get the impression that market statistics would have us believe that practically everybody who owns a PC has one with a Dell or HP label on it.

EDIT: Actually, when I think about it the statistics on their own suggest that Dell and HP don't own the market. The statistics state that Dell have around 19% of the branded market and HP 3% less so 16%. Combined that comes to 35%. Now, if we were to make an educated guess that the branded manufacturers made up 50% or even 60% of the total market that puts Dell and HP's combined market share at around 17-21% which isn't anything even resembling dominance.
Your personal experience of knowing what people own is in no way a reflection of anything other than your own personal experience. Most businesses have Dell computers, Barclays, the local newsagents (quite a few of them as till points), and more that I don't remember. The majority of my friends own either Dell computers, or second hand ones. The second hand market has no real relevance on anything within this discussion.

Rasczak

06-08-2006, 1:54 PM

I have no intention of getting involved in this "which PC company is bigger" argument but I will say Dell originally solely backed the DVD+ recordable format. This didn't stop DVD- establishing itself as the world's standard and even now the sales of DVD- discs outstrip DVD+ by 4 to 1. Naturally Dell has now been forced down the Super DVD Multi route like everyone else. Odds are this is what will happen with HD DVD/BluRay.

AgentCool

06-08-2006, 2:01 PM

Your personal experience of knowing what people own is in no way a reflection of anything other than your own personal experience. Most businesses have Dell computers, Barclays, the local newsagents (quite a few of them as till points), and more that I don't remember. The majority of my friends own either Dell computers, or second hand ones. The second hand market has no real relevance on anything within this discussion.

In my personal experience nobody owns a Dell. In your personal experience everybody owns a Dell. Sounds like an agree to disagree situation to me...

nehalem

06-08-2006, 2:18 PM

EDIT: Actually, when I think about it the statistics on their own suggest that Dell and HP don't own the market. The statistics state that Dell have around 19% of the branded market and HP 3% less so 16%. Combined that comes to 35%. Now, if we were to make an educated guess that the branded manufacturers made up 50% or even 60% of the total market that puts Dell and HP's combined market share at around 17-21% which isn't anything even resembling dominance.

Not being funny but your educated guesses are soley based on your personal experiences rather than facts so your calculations are nothing more than thinking of a number and claiming that to be fact. Just give it up.....

I will say Dell originally solely backed the DVD+ recordable format. This didn't stop DVD- establishing itself as the world's standard and even now the sales of DVD- discs outstrip DVD+ by 4 to 1. Naturally Dell has now been forced down the Super DVD Multi route like everyone else. Odds are this is what will happen with HD DVD/BluRay.

Interesting point, hadn't realised that. I guess what might make things slightly different this time is that +/- DVD drives came out pretty soon after lauch if I remember rightly as the standards aren't too dissimilar. Dual BD/HD drives are a fair way off yet (have they actually been demonstrated yet or are they just being promised?)

Evil Engineer

06-08-2006, 3:24 PM

What started off as a Apple go for Bluray thread seems to have mutated into a Dell & HP thread. How about discussing the topic?

Will Apple going for Bluray have any impact on the format war?

Can Apple do for Bluray what they did for MP3 players with the right product?

Does anybody really care about Media centres/HTPCs for watching HD movies or will dedicated players rule the roost?

AgentCool

06-08-2006, 3:38 PM

Not being funny but your educated guesses are soley based on your personal experiences rather than facts so your calculations are nothing more than thinking of a number and claiming that to be fact. Just give it up.....

I know this really is off topic (or is it?) but just to clarify the discussion, my very simple original point was that Dell, HP, Apple or any other PC manufacturer for that matter has no dominance or control over the computer market and therefore the decision by any one of them to include Blu-Ray or HD-DVD drives on their machines will have no impact on the success of either format whatsoever. If we were talking about Home Cinema then yes, certain individual companies could realistically have an impact but not in the computer market. The real control over the success of Blu-Ray or HD-DVD as a computing format lies in the market as a whole and particularly, custom builders as that is where a vast number of PCs originate from. You don't have to rely on statistics to tell you that the custom market is massive. Everywhere you go there are small shops building computers and eBay has an extremely large computer component trade.

Even if you exclude my estimated statistics and totally ignore the enormous unbranded market, Dell still only has a 19% share of the market. I can't imagine anybody could honestly say with any conviction that Dell/HP/Apple have a big enough stranglehold on the computer market to influence the take-up of new technologies. Not by a long shot.

That is all I wanted to say. I'm not saying Dell, HP or Apple are rubbish, I'm just saying that no 1, 2 or 10 computer manufacturers combined can even remotely claim to own the computer industry. After all it is one of the largest and most complex electronics industries in the world.

Rasczak

06-08-2006, 3:50 PM

Interesting point, hadn't realised that. I guess what might make things slightly different this time is that +/- DVD drives came out pretty soon after lauch if I remember rightly as the standards aren't too dissimilar. Dual BD/HD drives are a fair way off yet (have they actually been demonstrated yet or are they just being promised?)
Dell stuck rigourously to single format (at the expense of it's customers I hasten to add) right to the end though. They were the last company to convert to dual format even though the drives they were supply were multi-format ones with firmware updates to disable DVD- writing. :rolleyes: Regardless there final stand made no difference to the format war other than leaving some of their customers in need of an upgrade.

richard plumb

06-08-2006, 4:34 PM

I can honestly say I would like Blu-Ray better if the companies behind it weren't so arrogant. It's an insult to the intelligence of the consumer.

I can honestly say I'd like feel better ignoring Bluray if it didn't have quite so many companies behind it. Never mind arrogance - the sheer number of companies backing it can make it a success by default.

AgentCool

06-08-2006, 4:41 PM

Well, you know what they say; Ignorance is bliss. At least until we know for certain which way the 'Most Drawn Out Format War Ever' pans out.

lfletcher

06-08-2006, 4:43 PM

Apple appear to be a very brand savy company. If they could stick a Blu Ray drive in a Mac Mini or similar device and do their usual media blitz they would certainly help rather than hinder the BD campaign.

NackNack

06-08-2006, 5:20 PM

In my personal experience nobody owns a Dell. In your personal experience everybody owns a Dell. Sounds like an agree to disagree situation to me...
I was saying that it's more useful to go by what the sales figures tell us more than personal experience - despite me finding it extremely hard to believe you know no one with a Dell computer. Do you know anyone?

AgentCool

06-08-2006, 6:57 PM

I know plenty of people and most of them are very skeptical about mail order computer companies what with the Tiny/Time fiascos. It's local dealers or self-build with everyone I know except my sister who has a Fujitsu-Siemens from PC World. I even used to do a Computer Science course and not one person of around 10 I knew had a Dell. In fact, I've never even seen a Dell in the flesh!

Perhaps I'm more the exception than the rule.

rover2002

06-08-2006, 7:10 PM

AgentCool

06-08-2006, 7:22 PM

I have a Dell 24" Ultrasharp monitor,and a dam fine monitor it is.:)

Funnily enough, Dell monitors are something I have seen!

NackNack

07-08-2006, 12:54 AM

"I even used to do a Computer Science course and not one person of around 10 I knew had a Dell."

Out of around 20 or so people I've known that do CS, I too don't think one of them does have a Dell, which means it's hardly ideal comparing them. Just watched V for Vendetta, all the PCs? Dells!

rover2002

07-08-2006, 1:46 AM

Dell is big in the U.S

NackNack

07-08-2006, 2:10 AM

Yes, it's big across the world, thanks for that.

Oakleyspatz

07-08-2006, 7:22 AM

Nearly all Dell monitors are actually Sony Trinitron screens (you can tell by the faint black line running horizontally across the screen which confirms it as a Trinitron screen). What this has to do with anything is beyond me but thought i'd throw it in anyway!!:grin:

AgentCool

07-08-2006, 9:06 AM

Basically, it started with me saying that no computer company has a big enough market share to affect the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD war which is what this thread is really about. A suggestion that a company such as Dell or HP has that kind of market dominance was made which I insisted (and still do) was simply not the case as the computer industry is too large.

So, in a way, it didn't really go off topic. It's just that we started discussing Dell's influence instead of Apple's!

mr_yogi

07-08-2006, 11:44 AM

OT

Nearly all Dell monitors are actually Sony Trinitron screens (you can tell by the faint black line running horizontally across the screen which confirms it as a Trinitron screen). What this has to do with anything is beyond me but thought i'd throw it in anyway!!:grin:

:lesson: Actually the two faint lines (transmission lines?) only indicate it is a "apature grill" CRT of which a number of manufacturers made screens, which included Misubishi DiamondTrons :grin: