View Full Version : Blu-ray: Can it Survive?
mjpartyboy
19-07-2006, 11:13 AM
I found this article today and thought it was an interesting read:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/blu-ray_2.htm
What do you think?
ianh64
19-07-2006, 11:28 AM
I think its too early to call - you did ask!
One of the major benefits of the HD-DVD models over the blu-ray models has been image quality especially in the context of pricing. We now know this may be down to a flaw in the configuration of the Samsung players as shipped so the question of image quality may disappear, or even swing in blu-rays favour - although I suspect that there will be little difference in it other than to a trained eye.
I don't know what consumer response was to blu-ray was in the states, but it is possible that it got such a pasting that it may be difficult to recover from and that blu-ray will simply become a Eurasian format. Or it may simply be that HD has not appeared on Joe Consumer's radar just yet so they are blissfully aware of the teething problems in which case its got a fighting chance.
I still think that HD-DVD has the killer app that blu-ray does not. That is the ability for hybrid format discs HD-DVD/SD-DVD to replace SD-DVD discs for new titles and it will get into peoples homes, or video stores/rental stores by stealth. By the time one or the other becomes main stream, the format of choice would certainly be highly influenced if people already had a handful of discs in their collection. And ofcource, great for the shops and video rentals stores who only have to hold one version on the shelves.
Upholder
19-07-2006, 11:33 AM
This may help...
http://avzombie.com/blog/2006/07/18/ricoh-to-launch-combi-hd-dvd-and-blu-ray-drive/
chambeaj
19-07-2006, 11:50 AM
Personally I now feel that Blu-Ray (and for that matter the PS3) will flop. HD-DVD will be the winner in this format war imho
rover2002
19-07-2006, 12:07 PM
Personally I now feel that Blu-Ray (and for that matter the PS3) will flop. HD-DVD will be the winner in this format war imho
I'm not a PS3 fan but i hardly think it will flop, there are more than enough fanboys out there to keep it afloat.
a well written article that really does spell out the current situation in the USA
p.s. Am I correct in thinking that HD-DVD will have greater Studio support in Europe due to DVD distribution differences...?
I heard that somewhere but unsure how true...??
ianh64
19-07-2006, 12:09 PM
This may help...
http://avzombie.com/blog/2006/07/18/ricoh-to-launch-combi-hd-dvd-and-blu-ray-drive/
Having a dual format drive is only part of the story. The software required to read the discs and for interactivity are completely different and huge tasks in their own right. Apparently the specifications for HD-DVD and blu-ray are 10 times the thickness of DVD and we all know how long it took for DVD to settle down.
I would guess that a dual format machine would not feature in the time scales that people are hoping that it will take for this format war nonsense to be sorted.
inzaman
19-07-2006, 12:14 PM
Good article, basically at the moment it seems stacked agains blu-ray, according to the article hd-dvd is half the price of blu-ray and has better image quality. Who therefore is going to pay for something that is twice as much and offers inferior quality, as it currently stands; not me thats for sure :)
Good article, basically at the moment it seems stacked agains blu-ray, according to the article hd-dvd is half the price of blu-ray and has better image quality. Who therefore is going to pay for something that is twice as much and offers inferior quality, as it currently stands; not me thats for sure :)
Yes but what about PS3 and 8 layer discs in the lab and 1080p and Disney and huge storage.....:devil:
Sorry couldn't help myself :rotfl:
Nic Rhodes
19-07-2006, 1:03 PM
good article.
Uruloke
19-07-2006, 1:12 PM
Yes but what about PS3 and 8 layer discs in the lab and 1080p and Disney and huge storage.....:devil:
Sorry couldn't help myself :rotfl:
Wasn't that article already posted here? I've read that article recently...
KevinPedrick
19-07-2006, 1:31 PM
So any studio supporting only blu-ray is evil whereas any studio supporting only HD-DVD has the customer at heart :rolleyes:
A little biased but a good read.
Personally, I reckon HD-DVD too!
Wasn't that article already posted here? I've read that article recently...
I think the original review has been posted a few times but non by me:smashin:
pjr918bmw
19-07-2006, 1:42 PM
very well written article - the logic of which, too me, would seem inescapable.
- Still not buying my HD DVD player yet though! :rotfl:
danvitale
19-07-2006, 1:42 PM
Both formats havent been fully released in all markets.. yet some here are judging the winner?
Totally and utterly futile.
scartlead
19-07-2006, 1:52 PM
very interesting article...hope they are right as I've just ordered my toshiba hd a1 from movietyme!
Mark
richard plumb
19-07-2006, 2:55 PM
I I still think that HD-DVD has the killer app that blu-ray does not. That is the ability for hybrid format discs HD-DVD/SD-DVD to replace SD-DVD discs for new titles and it will get into peoples homes, or video stores/rental stores by stealth. By the time one or the other becomes main stream, the format of choice would certainly be highly influenced if people already had a handful of discs in their collection. And ofcource, great for the shops and video rentals stores who only have to hold one version on the shelves.
Not while they are priced so expensive. Nobody is going to accidentally buy the combo discs. The only people that will are those who are already aware of the HD players and think they'll own a HDDVD player in the future. Or those who have a HDDVD player but also one/more DVD players so want compatibility.
Not a huge thing IMO. But I guess every little helps. And HDDVD certainly seems to have all the little things sorted out. It is a very strong offering, it just needs the other studios to cave, and for more manufactuers to come on board (and for the low prices to be maintained)
ianh64
19-07-2006, 3:16 PM
Not while they are priced so expensive. Nobody is going to accidentally buy the combo discs.
They will if you give them no alternative - ie no release on SD-DVD, only hybrid.
mattrixdesign2
19-07-2006, 3:39 PM
After spending some time on this forum, I feel that BluRay may well go belly up. I thought it had the advantage of getting in to home via PS3 but Sonys pricing point and the time it will take to get the PS3 into home will damage the protential lead they could have had. Besides don't Sony have a knack of not having major take up of there own formats (Betamax,MD) - Often they are technicaly superior but some how struggle against the competion.
Now that I have realised the advantages of HD, the possibility of dual format with SD discs, and lower costs, HD-DVD may have the advantage.
TBH I don't want a format war, we could do without it, if there was certainy on which format maybe us consumers would adopt much ealier.
Any how we are all guessing and its just too early to tell, may be neither format will succeed in time for HD Broadcasts and Downloads to take over from a physical medium>?
welwynnick
19-07-2006, 7:32 PM
From our vantage point, it appears that HD-DVD has already won.I'm more than surprised that so many smart and well-educated people are falling for this. Of course IanH64 is right - it's far to soon to call it.
Would you decide whether the latest and greatest Denon, Arcam, Onkyo, TAG or Meridian DVD players were any good just on the basis of the performance of the very first Samsung DVD player?
Nick
Nic Rhodes
19-07-2006, 7:46 PM
I am not sure HD DVD has won but BD is well on the way to looseing the war. All it would take is one major studio like Fox to jump ship and BD is in real trouble. At the moment I guess I side with the 'well-educated people' and hope :grin:. You can't help to be impressed by the HD DVD campaign geared to what the customers want however. It is impressive.
BadAss
19-07-2006, 8:34 PM
I don’t think BD is in any trouble at all, these threads really are fun to read.
So the HD-A1 has better PQ so far. Early reviews say Pioneers Elite player is as good as the HD-A1, so no advantage there. Sony’s player should be the same.
WB says its going to release its movies in VC-1 just as it does on HD-DVD, so no advantage there either. After time no one will use Mpeg2 not even Sony.
The HD-DVD is a very competitively priced piece of kit in the US but it looks (rumour) like that can't be said for the rest of the world.
Toshiba has played its hand. They built a good machine and sold it as low as they possibly could. Sony, Pioneer and Panasonic IMO have built equally good machines and priced them high because they are confident they will sell even at double the price. Even if they don't does that mean game over? Does it mean these companies will just scrap the format and roll over and let Toshiba rule the roost? I'm sure it wouldn't take much head scratching for the worlds leading electronics giants to come up with a plan B, erm like maybe lowering prices.
Let’s face it, if HD-DVD is currently running at 90% of its potential BD is running at about 20%. Come November and I predict BD to be running at 60-70% while HD-DVD will be at 95%. The difference is BD will own the HD market by then in the US and amazon’s figures will back this up even if they are biased towards HD-DVD.
inzaman
19-07-2006, 8:35 PM
Would you decide whether the latest and greatest Denon, Arcam, Onkyo, TAG or Meridian DVD players were any good just on the basis of the performance of the very first Samsung DVD player?
Nick, whilst that is a valid point the Samsung usually comes in at a lower price so for the additional £'s those niche brands have to provide a better quality or fail, that is their strategic position that they have decided to take. When the base model (or assumption of the base model) starts at twice as much as the competing format and offers no perceived benefit at this moment in time then it is an up hill struggle for a format straight away, especially as hd-dvd does have the early start and is gathering momentum.
This is before those said brands enter the fray with what they can do and start to squeeze every bit of detail out of hd-dvd.
Maybe Sony has been taken by surprise at the competitive move of Toshiba and co, i.e pace and price, maybe BR just is not ready yet and has been rushed due to hd-dvd i.e dual layer, compression issues etc or maybe Sony are relying on the PS3 and the Sony brand. Who knows, i guess maybe it is just too early yet but hd-dvd has got off to a flying start but it is a marathon and not a sprint (product life cycle dependent) :)
Nic Rhodes
19-07-2006, 9:52 PM
Who builds Sony DVD players? Samsung? Rumour has it, for the last 2 years.
Who builds Sony BD players? I bet it begins with S...... :) And the Pioneer, is it built by the same people? It has the same delays. :)
RobDickinson
19-07-2006, 10:01 PM
Lets look at the facts,
Today (not next year) bluray is more expensive (2* the cost for the player, disks are more), the image quality is poorer, codecs are poorer, disks are smaller and they lack hidef sound.
There selling a poorer product for mroe money and , the worst bit, there late to market in an area consumers arnt all that intrested in.
Doesnt sound good so far.
tinhat
19-07-2006, 10:04 PM
Im old enough to remember the format wars between vhs and betamax.
The local video shop at the time use to stock both formats but the availabilty of vhs titles was twice as many as betamax. It was this factor alone which killed off betamax.
Looks like history is repeating itself as regards hd-dvd and blueray.
BadAss
19-07-2006, 10:04 PM
Who builds Sony DVD players? Samsung? Rumour has it, for the last 2 years.
Who builds Sony BD players? I bet it begins with S...... :) And the Pioneer, is it built by the same people? It has the same delays. :)
It don't matter who builds BD players, what matters is they build them right. :smashin:
Rumour or not. Does it matter if the US pay £350 and we in the UK pay £800? I think so.
Im old enough to remember the format wars between vhs and betamax.
The local video shop at the time use to stock both formats but the availabilty of vhs titles was twice as many as betamax. It was this factor alone which killed off betamax.
Looks like history is repeating itself as regards hd-dvd and blueray.
Hmmm why are BD discs cheaper on average then?
Lets look at the facts,
Today (not next year) bluray is more expensive (2* the cost for the player, disks are more), the image quality is poorer, codecs are poorer, disks are smaller and they lack hidef sound.
There selling a poorer product for mroe money and , the worst bit, there late to market in an area consumers arnt all that intrested in.
Doesnt sound good so far.
Come October...........ish, that will all change over night...........ish.
The thing that will ultimately kill Blu-ray is the vulnerability of the discs. Forget DVD rot, you only have to touch the play side and it's buggered. :rotfl:
Nic Rhodes
19-07-2006, 10:20 PM
I didn't ask how they are built, I would expect all players to be built correctly. I asked WHO built them. I think people might be interested ;)
£350 or £800. Let compare like with like when they are announce rather than the cheap one against an unannounced but probably higher spec player, in a different market, with different facilities. Or should we compare the cheap HD DVD with the Pioneer BD? :)
nehalem
19-07-2006, 10:55 PM
Lets look at the facts,
Today (not next year) bluray is more expensive (2* the cost for the player, disks are more), the image quality is poorer, codecs are poorer, disks are smaller and they lack hidef sound.
There selling a poorer product for mroe money and , the worst bit, there late to market in an area consumers arnt all that intrested in.
Doesnt sound good so far.
Discs are smaller??? what? - http://www.techspot.com/articles/blu-ray_vs_hddvd/
Some might say that facts are irrelevant, it all depends on how they are marketed? The majority of people on this forum are balls deep in the technology and far better informed than man on the street. If he sees glossy, sexy adverts featuring Casino Royale ( as you can bet there will be a tie in with Blu Ray and the new James Bond) and Blu Ray then he may well buy it on that strength alone.
Betamax was the superior format in pretty much every way - the technology still exists today in a professional capacity with Betacam, yet it was beaten by VHS. It may well be that despte HD DVD being superior at the moment the marketing strength of Sony beats it.
It is waaaaay to early to start talking about formats being a write off, once everyone has players on that market then maybe - so 6 - 9 months down the line, the picture will be a lot clearer (literally! lol)
The thing that will ultimately kill Blu-ray is the vulnerability of the discs. Forget DVD rot, you only have to touch the play side and it's buggered.
Absolute balls - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durabis - I have had a Blu-Ray disc get scratched to buggery and it still played fine.
RobDickinson
19-07-2006, 11:13 PM
Discs are smaller??? what? - http://www.techspot.com/articles/blu-ray_vs_hddvd/
Yes, I said TODAY - not in some lab somewhere or next year.
HD-DVD are 30gig, Bluray is 25gig, today, what I can buy. One day mebe, bluray will be 4 layer 100gig, but not on the shelves today.
You've bought into bluray, I've not bought either, today if I was spending cash it'd be HD-DVD, more movies, cheaper, better picture.Mebe bluray will come back strong soon, they need to.
nehalem
19-07-2006, 11:35 PM
Yes, I said TODAY - not in some lab somewhere or next year.
HD-DVD are 30gig, Bluray is 25gig, today, what I can buy. One day mebe, bluray will be 4 layer 100gig, but not on the shelves today.
You've bought into bluray, I've not bought either, today if I was spending cash it'd be HD-DVD, more movies, cheaper, better picture.Mebe bluray will come back strong soon, they need to.
Yep both Sony and TDK been shipping 50gb for a month now
http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/sony-to-ship-50gb-bluray-blanks-in-june-171914.php
http://www.hdtvuk.tv/2006/05/tdk_ships_25gb_.html
and yep you can purchase them now
http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?ProductSKU=BNR50AHE
;)
RobDickinson
19-07-2006, 11:42 PM
Sorry how does that affect the movies on the shelf?
jimihifi
20-07-2006, 1:51 AM
What I cant understand is, why nobody seems to be concerned at the quality of the codecs BD is using?!
This is supposed to be a next gen product, HD-DVD is using the new VC-1 codec and sony is using the old MPEG-2......
....and yet nearly every thread I read about this war says the same bloody thing:
"at the moment sony are using MPEG2 for BD but they should start using MPEG4 or VC-1 in the future to produce better PQ"
***?!?!?:mad: :eek:
They should have been using it from the off! Toshiba did and the results speak for themselves and will only improve with time.
But I get so wound up reading posts from people that seem to think that what sony are doing with the first wave of discs is acceptable.
And they are trying to charge you double the price for it!
Sony have tried to re-invent the media market twice before and have failed, it doesnt matter what format was superior blah, blah, blah, they lost out.
And yet here they are again sticking their uptight, smug noses in trying to outdo everyone again and ultimately not giving a toss about the consumer. We keep getting all these details about the format 'dual layer 50gb discs' (that they cant get to work properly off the production line),'better storage', better picture - true 1080P HD', 'make your breakfast and do the washing up while you watch etc, etc'
But so far have point blank, not delivered.
Im not trying to knock Sony as the success of the Playstation brand speaks for itself, they can do some things well but not this time imho.
I can understand that fans of sony and their products (PS3) want BD to do well and succeed, but :lease: wake up and face the facts.
Bluray isnt really going anywhere other than PC/Media storage (if 250gb disc appear) and ultimately HD-DVD WILL be the winner of this war, and you can take that to the bank.:thumbsup:
If I am wrong I will hold my hands up and apologise, but I am too confident that I already know the outcome.
Big, Big, Big rant over.
Edit: 03:10am
P.S. sorry if I sounded a little harsh but am really hot, stuck in the cupboard on my computer as the missus wont let me untidy the bedroom with it!
so once again my apologies for sounding too harsh.:)
Womble76
20-07-2006, 2:17 AM
Regarding the price of blue-rays players - I think Sony are caught between a rock and a hard placestation (hehe, cough, sorry). If they drop the BR players to match the HDDVD players price then suddenly the PS3 loses one of Sonys major marketing hopes for it, ie the "look folks – its a cheap Blue Ray drive too".
If $BlueRay = $PS3 = $HDDVD drive then they stand to lose twice
The AV buffs will plump for an HDDVD due to image quality, ignoring the BlueRay format.
Vast numbers of gamers will deem the Blue Ray to be not worth a bean therefore the PS3 is just too costly so many on-the-fence buyers will stay seated until its price falls significantly.
Blueray doesn’t get to ride the PS3 wave into millions of homes in time to compete with HDDVDand founders as a format, and it’s a vicious circle from this point on.
So they have to keep BlueRay prices high until the PS3 launch..or their marketing plans come tumbling down.
Just a thought.
ianh64
20-07-2006, 5:56 AM
Hmmm why are BD discs cheaper on average then?
Its all because of supply and demand. Nobody wants them so they have to bring the price down to have any chance of selling them :rotfl:
Nic Rhodes
20-07-2006, 6:26 AM
I thought the whole point of Blue ray discs is that they don't get scratched in the first place, isn't that what the anti scratch coating is all about?
I am not sure the decisions as to who has won is 'way off', I think it is actually much closer than we all think. Individuals are making their 'call' now. I know we haven't even had launches of HD DVD in many parts f the world yet, let alone BD, but people are beginning to make thier minds up. They seem to be doing this MUCH faster than happened with DVD, the world quickiest growing commercial format. I remember they days (actaually years) when no one knew what DVD was, now even girls in the office are asking about it now their boyfriends have HD Ready TVs (for the football) and now want SkyHD. It is being decided on cost and speed to market and people are deciding now, not in 2 years. Many people who would have 'sat on the fence' are making a call one way or another.
lfletcher
20-07-2006, 6:46 AM
I thought the whole point of Blue ray discs is that they don't get scratched in the first place, isn't that what the anti scratch coating is all about?A few of my BD discs have come off their spindles in shipping and to my surprise there hasnt been a scratch on any of them, which is handy.
Conversely 2 of my HD-DVDs have also been rattlers and they have been quite badly scratched. To my shock the Tosh player played them both back perfectly, so well done Toshiba and HD-DVD for making a robust format that works despite scratches on the disk.
The amount of DVD's that have skipped or not even played due to scratches has been quite annoying.
Nic Rhodes
20-07-2006, 7:45 AM
Fom what I know of the BD coating it is very effective. Is it the TDK one?
What I cant understand is, why nobody seems to be concerned at the quality of the codecs BD is using?!
This is supposed to be a next gen product, HD-DVD is using the new VC-1 codec and sony is using the old MPEG-2......
....and yet nearly every thread I read about this war says the same bloody thing:
"at the moment sony are using MPEG2 for BD but they should start using MPEG4 or VC-1 in the future to produce better PQ"
***?!?!?:mad: :eek:
They should have been using it from the off! Toshiba did and the results speak for themselves and will only improve with time.
But I get so wound up reading posts from people that seem to think that what sony are doing with the first wave of discs is acceptable.
And they are trying to charge you double the price for it!
Well, there are plenty of people complaining and from where I'm sitting (firmly on the fence) the overwhelming concensus of opinion seems to be 1-0 to HD-DVD on picture quality...
However as I've said before I think Sony's stance has not much to do with technical issues but political ones. VC-1 is Microsoft's baby and they are firmly behind HD-DVD. Sony using VC-1 at this stage would be like getting Toshiba to make their first Blu-ray player.
The next couple of months will tell if any Blu-ray studio not owned by Sony will release anything on a different codec. In six months time I reckon we'll have a much better idea of how things really stand. The ball is firmly in the Blu-ray side of the court at the moment, can they return it? :grin:
richard plumb
20-07-2006, 8:15 AM
What I cant understand is, why nobody seems to be concerned at the quality of the codecs BD is using?!
This is supposed to be a next gen product, HD-DVD is using the new VC-1 codec and sony is using the old MPEG-2......
First, since when is newer automatically better?
Yes, VC1 looks very good, but MPEG2 - given enough space - should look equally as good and they have tools readily available. I think the only issue is space. BD should have had BD50 available which would have given them enough space for great quality MPEG2
I don't blame Sony at all for going with MPEG2. I do blame them for launching before BD50 was available.
As mentioned - HDDVD has shown its hand, and shown what a player/disc should be like. If BD hits that mark before the end of the year (doable if they get BD50/VC1 going), then the playing field is levelish going into 2007 (thats where it'll matter). This player stuff is all short term snagging.
Then its all down to content, and BD has the advantage of studio support.
Nic Rhodes
20-07-2006, 8:33 AM
I am a fan of MPEG2 but VC 1 IS MUCH better codec. A 30Gb VC 1 HD DVD disc would need to be 60 - 75 Gb for MPEG2 BD one of equivalent quality, IF, and a big if, the max transfer rates were not exceeded, which I think they would be. Although there has always been talk of 8 BD layers , I think for movies we have only ever agreed on 2. If they manage that.
Re Studio support, I remain unconvinced of a serious advantage one way or the other. Certainly when you look at the relatively large size of Warner and Universal, the non control Sony now has at MGM and the back catalogue that some studios have. Back in the early days of DVD Warner had something like 68% of the back catalogue. Add to the mix the international variations, we have BD only films in the US that will be launch in europe as HD DVD.
I want to see BD win purely because it is the more technologically advanced but that fact won't sell it to the public - and in terms of AV, neither will capacity capability either though it may well have more success as a PC media purely for this reason.
Technology is a 'now' market and in general consumers are pretty dumb animals - but animals that have also been scared by the VHS vs. Betamax battle. If you look at BD vs. HD-DVD, on the face of it, all that BD really has to offer consumers over HD-DVD is capacity. HD-DVD, at launch, exhibits better quality video at significantly lower prices, has the familiar 'DVD' name and is readily backward compatible with 'old' DVD - both of the latter will make Joe Public comfortable with the change. Also it is coming to market significantly earlier than BD too.
It is my belief that for BD to actually have a chance Sony et al need to:
a) pricematch HD-DVD so that consumers can see a real benefit (i.e. capacity) of going with a technology that is perceived to be totally new and unfamiliar.
b) drop MPEG-2 like a hot potato and focus on VC-1 or MPEG-4 (either will probably do BUT GET THE QUALITY SORTED! - No one will buy an AV technology that costs twice as much, or even costs the same, but gives worse results!)
c) pick up the pace of getting the format to market WORLDWIDE (not just in the b***dy US) and signifiicantly cut HD-DVD's head start. Rather than gas filled managers and lawyers sitting around a table blarring (or firing emails) at each other over how to get as much control as possible over who will be allowed to watch what at what price to the consumer, get the engineers and designers to meet with the technically informed representatives from the software houses and studios so that they can discuss directly what is wanted and what exactly can be done. With a strong chairperson this all can be put to bed in a week. After all, market control and price manipulation have been the chief causes of delay to the BD program thus far.
....and enlighten me please - exactly how does market control benefit the consumer ...the people who you actually want to buy this format???
Ok, the increase in investment now and the subsidised pricing may lead to losses over the first couple of years but I believe that addressing the three points above, coupled with the other benefits of BD, will really take the battle to HD-DVD.
And another thing, though it's good that a manufacturer (Samsung) is trying trying to get the format into the marketplace as quickly as possible to compete with HD-DVD, producing a machine that doesn't deliver the goods simply damages the BD brand name.
Disappointingly, as things currently stand I would be pretty surprised if BD finally comes out on top of HD-DVD.
Rasczak
20-07-2006, 9:15 AM
I want to see BD win purely because it is the more technologically advanced
In what respects is it "more technologically advanced"? :)
lfletcher
20-07-2006, 9:43 AM
In what respects is it "more technologically advanced"? :)Its layers have greater capacity and its data transfer rate is much higher.
We'll just ignore the fact they have issues with more than 1 layer ;)
Nic Rhodes
20-07-2006, 9:54 AM
Can't it take greater than 8 bit colour depths to be used with HDMI 1.3? Again they need space to do that as well. 1 layer even 2 won't help. Not that there are any plans for this 'enhanced colour' either :)
Its layers have greater capacity and its data transfer rate is much higher.
We'll just ignore the fact they have issues with more than 1 layer ;)
I think the more important difference is not really in the physical disc format and capacities which at 30GB and 50GB will be more than enough given the right codec, of which both formats support the same ones... (and it won't be that hard to use multiple discs as they do today for DVD)
The difference is in the interactive platforms. For example, iHD is not a virtual machine but more a scripting type platform, so using BD-J you could include say an embedded browser program for internet access similar to mobile phones (which generally also use Java based systems), whereas iHD would not support such an application without changing iHD...
So ultimately I believe BD-J provides a richer environment for those willing to exploit it, but iHD seems to be quicker to get up and running with.
BOTH however far exceed my interest in what can be acheived, as bizarrely enough I'm interested in watching something called a film in high quality.:eek:
Nic Rhodes
20-07-2006, 10:05 AM
and VC 1 30Gb should hold a 4hr movie. Yes 4 hrs.
Evil Engineer
20-07-2006, 10:31 AM
and VC 1 30Gb should hold a 4hr movie. Yes 4 hrs.
Does that include the sound ?
For instance, could you get the Lord of the Rings Extendo editions onto single discs with 7.1 True-HD sound without compromising on either the picture or sound?
Although with those films it's not that bad an idea having them on two discs. It forces to get up and make a drink or something before the pressure sores start to develop. :)
shaithis
20-07-2006, 10:31 AM
and VC 1 30Gb should hold a 4hr movie. Yes 4 hrs.
Thats JUST enough then :)
With the likes of LOTR and King Kong, 4hrs is about the sweet-spot.
lfletcher
20-07-2006, 10:44 AM
Does that include the sound ?
For instance, could you get the Lord of the Rings Extendo editions onto single discs with 7.1 True-HD sound without compromising on either the picture or sound?
Although with those films it's not that bad an idea having them on two discs. It forces to get up and make a drink or something before the pressure sores start to develop. :)According to Amir (the MS fella over at AVS), yes you can. This was used as an example of what you could or couldnt get onto a disc. LOTR with a lossless track and 2 lossy ones could fit on I believe.
danvitale
20-07-2006, 10:44 AM
The thing that will ultimately kill Blu-ray is the vulnerability of the discs. Forget DVD rot, you only have to touch the play side and it's buggered. :rotfl:
If you did your homework you might just find about Durabis coating.
I think the studio support issue smacks a bit of sony/bd playing the numbers game , by far most of the blockbuster output in the last 10 years has been WB and new line to an extent. I think I've worked on 1 fox film in the last 10 years , no universal but I've lost count of the WB titles and even paramount to an extent.
I'm expecting Disney to announce hd-dvd support in the near future.
Nic Rhodes
20-07-2006, 11:00 AM
I think the studio support issue smacks a bit of sony/bd playing the numbers game , by far most of the blockbuster output in the last 10 years has been WB and new line to an extent. I think I've worked on 1 fox film in the last 10 years , no universal but I've lost count of the WB titles and even paramount to an extent.
I'm expecting Disney to announce hd-dvd support in the near future.
Exactly.
lfletcher
20-07-2006, 11:14 AM
Why exactly are so many people expecting Disney to also support HD-DVD in the not too distant future?
Uruloke
20-07-2006, 11:21 AM
Why exactly are so many people expecting Disney to also support HD-DVD in the not too distant future?
It's been hotly rumoured for quite some time that Disney are preparing HD-DVD releases.
lfletcher
20-07-2006, 11:26 AM
It's been hotly rumoured for quite some time that Disney are preparing HD-DVD releases.Yes, I keep hearing it, but where is it coming from? I know someone high up at Disney (cant remember who) mentioned that they wouldnt be adverse to releasing titles on HD-DVD, but apart from that what else have we got saying that an announcement is imminent?
Appears to be a lot of forum chatter and wishful thinking. Although I hope I'm proved wrong.
If you did your homework you might just find about Durabis coating.
How does Durabis help against thumb prints? :confused:
Why exactly are so many people expecting Disney to also support HD-DVD in the not too distant future?
I'd rather have Universal than Disney.
It's been hotly rumoured for quite some time that Disney are preparing HD-DVD releases.
Its more along the lines that Disney are preparing hidef releases and are getting fed up with BD production delays , all the more glaring when hd-dvd is already sitting there , performing well and cheaper to produce. Disney makes most of its money from retail release these days (they make shedloads from their back catalogue and the hidef formats are another excuse to start raking in cash all over again...also Disney has had a rather poor last few years and shareholders would be grateful for a swift cash injection sooner rather than later).
They are somewhat relying on this to lift the company out of the financial doldrums and they will only wait so long.
Many other studios will be of a somewhat similar frame of mind but the potential revenue from back catalogue sales could very well put disney somewhere more comfortable than it has been for the last couple of years. They are somewhat hungry.They cannot afford to wait much longer. I doubt they are prepared to wait for another financial year to tick past.
lfletcher
20-07-2006, 11:34 AM
I'd rather have Universal than Disney.I tend to agree with this and its the major reason why I invested in a HD-DVD player.
Nic Rhodes
20-07-2006, 11:40 AM
and Disney was instrument in iHD for HD DVD being one of the co authors.
lfletcher
20-07-2006, 11:40 AM
Its more along the lines that Disney are preparing hidef releases and are getting fed up with BD production delays , all the more glaring when hd-dvd is already sitting there , performing well and cheaper to produce. Disney makes most of its money from retail release these days (they make shedloads from their back catalogue and the hidef formats are another excuse to start raking in cash all over again...also Disney has had a rather poor last few years and shareholders would be grateful for a swift cash injection sooner rather than later).I'd agree with this statement if HD-DVD had millions of machines in the publics hands and they were desperate for content. However how many machines have Toshiba sold? 50,000? 100,000? Even if everyone then decided to buy the Disney titles its still not going to be a great deal of revenue compared to a big DVD release where they will sell millions in the US alone. I doubt the profit difference between a DVD and a HD-DVD is massive as the retail prices are fairly similar. So until HD-DVD has a bigger market presense why would Disney be desperate to jump on their bandwagon?
Nic Rhodes
20-07-2006, 11:41 AM
I'd rather have Universal than Disney.
That would spell the death of BD though.
lfletcher
20-07-2006, 11:41 AM
and Disney was instrument in iHD for HD DVD being one of the co authors.Yep, but it didnt seem to be a big enough driving factor for them to side with HD-DVD when studios were picking sides or announcing dual support, so whats changed now?
Nic Rhodes
20-07-2006, 11:48 AM
The public wants HD DVD and is rebelling agains BD?
Uruloke
20-07-2006, 11:49 AM
The public wants HD DVD and is rebelling agains BD?
Or maybe it's more the public demands quality and are therefore choosing HD-DVD over Blu-Ray...
So until HD-DVD has a bigger market presense why would Disney be desperate to jump on their bandwagon?
Disney know that if they back and hype hd-dvd its highly likely it will be the succesful hidef format, they are more likely to go this route than wait for an ever more delayed blu-ray. Its a catch 22 situation but its one where the momentum is obviously with hd-dvd.
If its supported and hyped now , hd-dvd might just be the christmas desirable this year especially in light of the generally frowned upon pricing of the PS3. I'm not even going to mention the hd-dvd add on for the 360...too late.
I personally think the format war is a done deal , no-one is happy with blu-ray ,not the public , not the studios (in either camp). They cannot get the thing to market and the public don't want it badly enough anyway, if that's not bad enough the rival product is already outperforming it and undercutting it ....conclusion...dead in the water.
The only blu ray discs that will be being released in a year's time are PS3 games. ( even then I suspect a lot of them will be on bog standard dvd)
Evil Engineer
20-07-2006, 12:25 PM
We keep hearing about how Disney jumping ship is imminent but does this account for the Steve Jobs factor?
Apple may have switched to Intel processors but will Mr. Jobs really want to give Microsoft a helping hand at the same time they are rumoured to readying an iPod rival for launch?
lfletcher
20-07-2006, 12:34 PM
Disney know that if they back and hype hd-dvd its highly likely it will be the succesful hidef format, they are more likely to go this route than wait for an ever more delayed blu-ray. Its a catch 22 situation but its one where the momentum is obviously with hd-dvd.Surely the same applies if Disney back Blu Ray? It has the chance to become leading format.
I also find it a little odd that people forget the balls up of a launch that HD-DVD had, yet lambaste Blu Ray for doing the same thing. It was supposed to be out in the US before last Christmas, then that changed to just Japan, then that got scrapped. Then it was March in the US and that slipped to April. I imagine Blu Ray only launched when they did to spoil HD-DVD's launch as much as possible. Do we forgive HD-DVD their poor launch and buggy machine (which Toshiba did a good job of fixing), because we like what we see compared to Blu Ray? I say lets see what Blu Ray can do in the next few months before we consign them to history prematurely.
I personally think the format war is a done deal , no-one is happy with blu-ray ,not the public , not the studios (in either camp). They cannot get the thing to market and the public don't want it badly enough anyway, if that's not bad enough the rival product is already outperforming it and undercutting it ....conclusion...dead in the water.I assume when you say the public you mean av enthusiasts writing on forums and websites. The way I see it, the public couldnt give a monkeys at the moment about either format, otherwise wouldnt we see sales in the millions within months of the launch. Something that I imagine we will see when the PS3 launches.
P.S. Thats not a ra ra PS3 is wonderful statement, I personally dont want one, and dont think it will have much bearing on the outcome of the format war. For that matter neither will the Xbox HD-DVD drive.
Surely the same applies if Disney back Blu Ray? It has the chance to become leading format.
Time and money will take precedent, they are getting impatient as I've already said.
I assume when you say the public you mean av enthusiasts writing on forums and websites. The way I see it, the public couldnt give a monkeys at the moment about either format, otherwise wouldnt we see sales in the millions within months of the launch. Something that I imagine we will see when the PS3 launches.
You can assume all you like but I did say "public" not "av enthusiasts" , by the time the public is even interested in a hidef fomat the war will have been over for a year .
P.S. Thats not a ra ra PS3 is wonderful statement, I personally dont want one, and dont think it will have much bearing on the outcome of the format war. For that matter neither will the Xbox HD-DVD drive.
Well why did you say we'll see millions of sales when its released?
Ian_S
20-07-2006, 12:45 PM
Reasonably fresh news I presume...
Click here... (http://news.com.com/Disney+to+shoot+Blu-ray+shorts/2100-1026_3-6094737.html)
Well why did you say we'll see millions of sales when its released?
Scratch that you were using it as an example of a succesful consumer electronics launch.
Reasonably fresh news I presume...
Click here... (http://news.com.com/Disney+to+shoot+Blu-ray+shorts/2100-1026_3-6094737.html)
fluff
lfletcher
20-07-2006, 12:49 PM
Time and money will take precedent, they are getting impatient as I've already said.Is that insider information or supposition?
You can assume all you like but I did say "public" not "av enthusiasts" , by the time the public is even interested in a hidef fomat the war will have been over for a year .OK, I'll bite, how are the public unhappy with Blu Ray when by your own admission they wont be interested in it till next year?
Well why did you say we'll see millions of sales when its released?Because IMO there will be enough hardcore gamers across the US, Asia and Europe that would purchase a PS3. In Japan alone I would imagine they will sell millions. Like them or loathe them Sony appear to be able to put together a console that people buy in their droves.
Is that insider information or supposition?
OK, I'll bite, how are the public unhappy with Blu Ray when by your own admission they wont be interested in it till next year?
Price.
Uruloke
20-07-2006, 2:35 PM
fluff
Agreed. I'm really not interested in pointless shorts that take up valuable disc space that could be used for a less compressed and ultimately better quality picture for the main movie. It's not an advantage over HD-DVD in any way, shape or form.
Agreed. I'm really not interested in pointless shorts that take up valuable disc space that could be used for a less compressed and ultimately better quality picture for the main movie. It's not an advantage over HD-DVD in any way, shape or form.
I think its very telling that this is all the blurb they could find worth outting in a press release.
Not exactly banging on about the quality improvements inherent with blu-ray releases are they.
paulfoley
20-07-2006, 3:34 PM
Just curious as to what a Disney Animated film will look like on a 25GB BD - Is animation hard or easy to encode ?
:confused:
Just curious as to what a Disney Animated film will look like on a 25GB BD - Is animation hard or easy to encode ?
:confused:
Really easy. Might not even look that much better than a good dvd.
gingerone
20-07-2006, 6:37 PM
I really don't see that blu-ray has anything to offer that HD-DVD does not, the interactive features are only going be different if you have the player connected to an internet connection and how many standard consumers would do this?
Given the current poor quality bad word will spread ahead of the european bluray launch and I can't see how sony wil be able to counteract this when it cos'ts more than HD-DVD anyway.
tinhat
20-07-2006, 9:12 PM
Just reading through the posts here some people get fired up supporting their own particular format.
At the end of the day what we as consumers want is a format that takes us onto the next level of multimedia entertainment, whatever that format is.
RobDickinson
20-07-2006, 11:22 PM
At the end of the day what we as consumers want is a format that takes us onto the next level of multimedia entertainment, whatever that format is.
Not nessiceraly true, look at SACD and DVD-A, effectivly failed formats that are better than CD. I have some of both, the quality is great (especialy DSOTM) but limited disks, limited ability to play them (I have one player, stachs of cd players/rips/mp3s etc), there a format tharts superior, split in between 2 competing systems (but even with dual players!) yet its failed, and likely to be surpassed by hidef disks anyhow.
I have neither bluray nor HD-DVD, I lean towards HD-DVD because I dislike sony's business practices (format tie ins, root kits etc) and there synonimous with bluray.
Bluray as I've stated is also expensive, currently inferior and late to market.
Not nessiceraly true, look at SACD and DVD-A... yet its failed, and likely to be surpassed by hidef disks anyhow.
Unfortunately if you're holding out hope of any music only releases on the new formats you're in for a long long wait... On AVS, Amir from Microsoft believes hi-resolution audio is largely dead, and doesn't see much sign of that changing for now. :(
The music companies don't feel there is enough demand for it... I think the best we can hope for is that some of the new HD players include support for SACD or DVD-A and that sometime in the future the market will change. I'm planning to keep a dual DVD-A/SACD player and seeing what happens.
This will apply to stereo too, don't expect many more high resolution releases there, even DualDud appears to have (thankfully) dropped off a cliff.
A shame in all, both SACD and DVD-A showed how superb (given the right material) they could sound. Music these days is not about fidelity it seems.
Chris The Ninja
21-07-2006, 3:14 PM
Music these days is not about fidelity it seems.
As shown by the rise and rise of the MP3.
Wonder why the same isn't true of the home cinema world? Maybe visual quality is more tangible to Joe Public?
Uruloke
21-07-2006, 3:27 PM
As shown by the rise and rise of the MP3.
Wonder why the same isn't true of the home cinema world? Maybe visual quality is more tangible to Joe Public?
Yep, in fact I think it's more tangible full stop (or period if you're american!)
In fact, I'd take an even less compressed movie and stick with the standard Dolby Digital 5.1/DTS soundtracks. Honestly I see absolutely no need for TRUEHD Lossless sound. Lossless soundtracks take up ridiculous amounts of disc space that could easily be used for a less compressed image.
As shown by the rise and rise of the MP3.
Wonder why the same isn't true of the home cinema world? Maybe visual quality is more tangible to Joe Public?
Well high end CD players have never exactly been a mass market product I suppose... The difference was that CD's play on everything from the cheapest tat to the most ridiculously expensive esoteric system. As they couldn't decide on one high resolution audio standard neither DVD-A or SACD reached the cheap tat market. Also on said cheap rubbish you'd have a hard job convincing people why they should buy a more expensive DVD-A or SACD when they could hear bog all difference between it and a CD, especially if they played their CD through their wizz bang all in one DVD player with party effect that gave them surround sound anyway...
These same people will quite happily dump CD for downloaded rights restricted inferior product that actually costs more per song because they think it's cool... so even CD's are under threat which will please the lawyers because they're too easy to copy.
There's a good chance that whilst HD looks much better than say Sky or Freeview, some people will say they don't see much difference between it and their upscaling cheappo player so why should they bother... we'll see soon enough no doubt. :grin:
Both camps are working on hybrid DVD's (JVC for BD) however, unless they're the same price it'll be a hard sell. And if they're the same price then what's in it for the studios? Hybrid hasn't helped either SACD or DVD-A for pretty much that reason.
There's a long way to go before either format (whatever wins or not) reaches mainstream as things are simply too complicated for most people to be bothered. If it doesn't work when first plugged in, show an immediate difference and not require a degree in computing it will die a slow death. Something I hope does not happen.