Attention Hi End SD DVD Owners Who Have Toshiba HD-DVD

[Timbo21]

I thought it would be interesting to hear from those of you who own something like a Denon A1XVA, Marantz 9600, or some other hi-end SD DVD player in the £1200 + category, and who also own a Toshiba HD-A1, or HD-XA1.

I would love to know how your Hi-end SD DVD player compares to true HD (not upscaled SD) on your Toshiba HD-DVD. I personally have only experienced HD on my projector via Telewest's TV Drive; things like BBC's Blue Planet & BBC HD preview, & of course the World Cup. I personally find that my Arcam DV29 SD DVD player holds up considerably well, & have discovered first hand that there is a good deal more to a great picture than mere resolution. However, I do realise cable & satellite don't transmit the kind of bit rates HD-DVD & Blu-ray do. So, all of you who have the above combination for comparison what are your findings?

Thanks,

T.

[lfletcher]

I'm not sure what the question is?
Are you asking how high end SD compares to HD-DVD or how SD on both compare to each other?

[Razzle]

I think he was asking how a high end SD player (upscaled) compares to true HD from the Toshiba.

[andrewjh009]

Well my Sony 930 DVD was about £200, i'd be surprised if i could tell the difference between that and a supposed 'high end' SD DVD player.

[Timbo21]

I think he was asking how a high end SD player (upscaled) compares to true HD from the Toshiba.
Yes that's what I was asking.

Although it doesn't matter whether the display or player, or even outboard scaler, does the upscaling in terms of standard definition, eg some Arcam players don't do upscaling so have to leave it to display or seperate scaler

[AML]

Ive seen a few demos and so far im not that impressed to be honest!

(I have a 3910 and have it upscaled to 1080i by the way.)

I guess when its at 720p it really doesnt look that much better.

This is the main reason I want to see true HD in 1080p/60 on a propper 1080p display which I have yet to see from any maker...

Its too early in either formats (HD DVD/BR) to see any real benefits over DVD being upscaled on a player such as the 3910 which is fairly new and quite advanced.

Maybe after the newer formats have been arround for a while and we see 3 or 4 generations of players we will see the benefits.

[lfletcher]

Well I have a high end dvd player, external scaler and a HD-DVD player. Very good SD scaled well can look amazing. Some stuff I have seen I would say compares to average off the air US HD. But good HD is so much better than SD, and good HD-DVD is the best there is at the moment imo. At the end of the day the detail isnt on the SD disc and the bigger the display the easier it is to tell the difference.

As an aside the difference between a £200 player and a £2000 is noticeable, whether its 10 times as good is debatable (its not 10 times as good because the laws of diminishing return kicks in), but there certainly is a difference both visibly and audibly.

[Oakleyspatz]

Yes that's what I was asking.

Although it doesn't matter whether the display or player, or even outboard scaler, does the upscaling in terms of standard definition, eg some Arcam players don't do upscaling so have to leave it to display or seperate scaler
At the end of the day, what you have to remember is that upscaling DVD, no matter how good the player, is basically trying to produce a higher resolution image from a standard resolution source which to begin with does not posess the information that a genuine HD source can contain.
In other words, it can make SD look better, but it cannot add detail (information) to an image that isn't already there in the original source. HD on the other hand has more detail to begin with and this is evident on a good HD transfer. If Cameron Diaz has a small dimple on her chin which isn't visible on a SD DVD, no amount of upscaling will reveal that dimple whereas a HD transfer has the ability to show that dimple in all it's glory from the outset.

My point is that all things being equal, HD-DVD should always produce a better image than upscaled DVD. HD not only posses more detail, but produces a much smoother more natural image compared to the artificial sharpness of upscaled DVD. This is obviously more apparent the larger the display but apparent it should be.

[Timbo21]

At the end of the day, what you have to remember is that upscaling DVD, no matter how good the player, is basically trying to produce a higher resolution image from a standard resolution source which to begin with does not posess the information that a genuine HD source can contain.
In other words, it can make SD look better, but it cannot add detail (information) to an image that isn't already there in the original source. HD on the other hand has more detail to begin with and this is evident on a good HD transfer. If Cameron Diaz has a small dimple on her chin which isn't visible on a SD DVD, no amount of upscaling will reveal that dimple whereas a HD transfer has the ability to show that dimple in all it's glory from the outset.

My point is that all things being equal, HD-DVD should always produce a better image than upscaled DVD. HD not only posses more detail, but produces a much smoother more natural image compared to the artificial sharpness of upscaled DVD. This is obviously more apparent the larger the display but apparent it should be.

Yes, I'm aware of all the above, but I am interested to know how (in reality) a £2000 SD DVD player compares to a £400 HD-DVD player from those who actually own both.

[lfletcher]

Yes, I'm aware of all the above, but I am interested to know how (in reality) a £2000 SD DVD player compares to a £400 HD-DVD player from those who actually own both.
See my post above Oakleys.

[rhino2k]

would be crazy to buy a 2k SD-DVDP now, you could get a HD-DVD and alot of film to go with it for the money.

there is no way SD can be as good as HD either, as said before there is more detail to start with. i would compare SD/HD to SD-DVD vs VHS. all the HD material i have seen is amazing :thumbsup:

[Timbo21]

See my post above Oakleys.

Thanks. Missed that somehow :)

I was really worried I would find it hard to go back to my DV29 after viewing HD material, but I still find it gives a great cinematic picture with my pj. I may feel different once I see a good HD-DVD film, for instance.

I think it may be possible that an exceptional SD DVD player may be better in some areas (apart from resolution) than a cheap HD-DVD/Blu-ray player. I'm not saying this is the case with Toshiba's players, but if some of the new HD players have poor quality components & processing then the hi-end DVD players may still hold their own to a certain extent.

OOI what DVD player & scaler are you using?

T.

[ash]

would be crazy to buy a 2k SD-DVDP now, you could get a HD-DVD and alot of film to go with it for the money.


If your rich, I don't see why not. Because there is a big lack of HD-DVD films as of yet, and so people will still buy SD-DVD and to get the best picture from that, you can use a 2k DVD Player, which will most propably produce better results than Toshiba HD-DVD player. Also some people have like 100s od SD-DVDs they havent watched, like me but not 100s, more like 50 LOL! And what if they never come out on HD Media for lots of years, and say BluRay/HDDVD players can't play DVD as well as the 2k ones.

I think I killed my arguement a bit LOL! I've never actually seen a £300-£900 or 2k player in life, maybe I should.

[rhino2k]

If your rich, I don't see why not. Because there is a big lack of HD-DVD films as of yet, and so people will still buy SD-DVD and to get the best picture from that, you can use a 2k DVD Player, which will most propably produce better results than Toshiba HD-DVD player. Also some people have like 100s od SD-DVDs they havent watched, like me but not 100s, more like 50 LOL! And what if they never come out on HD Media for lots of years, and say BluRay/HDDVD players can't play DVD as well as the 2k ones.

I think I killed my arguement a bit LOL! I've never actually seen a £300-£900 or 2k player in life, maybe I should.

sounds like you could wait for the releases on HD-DVD tbph :grin:

i would opt for a decent mid/high end player like the 989avi and add a iscan vp30 ect. would cost around 2k and give awesome results :cool:

arguement about media taken though, then again if you are rich you could have both :cool: :grin:

[Avi]

Yes, I'm aware of all the above, but I am interested to know how (in reality) a £2000 SD DVD player compares to a £400 HD-DVD player from those who actually own both.


I use a 963 SDI as a transport into a Lumagen HPD and also own an Tosh A1. HD-DVD is simply in a different league to DVD even on high end kit.

A word of caution in that all HD-DVD or BD titles are not equal in terms of PQ as much depends on the quailty of original source and transfer - garbage in garbage out even in high def.

AVI

[Oakleyspatz]

A word of caution in that all HD-DVD or BD titles are not equal in terms of PQ as much depends on the quailty of original source and transfer - garbage in garbage out even in high def.

AVI
An excellent point. I totally agree and just as there are great DVD transfers, there are also rubbish ones, so the same applies to HD-DVD.

[lfletcher]

I think it may be possible that an exceptional SD DVD player may be better in some areas (apart from resolution) than a cheap HD-DVD/Blu-ray player. I'm not saying this is the case with Toshiba's players, but if some of the new HD players have poor quality components & processing then the hi-end DVD players may still hold their own to a certain extent.

OOI what DVD player & scaler are you using?T.I think the biggest area of difference between cheap and expensive will be their audio capabilities. There will be differences in the picture, but probably not as pronounced.
I have a Linn Unidisk 1.1, using SDI into a Lumagen HDP Pro.

An excellent point. I totally agree and just as there are great DVD transfers, there are also rubbish ones, so the same applies to HD-DVD.And this is the same point I was trying to make, just because its high definition doesnt make it great and therefore massively superior to SD.

[recruit]

I have been living with the latest Denon DVD A1XVA for a few months now and the PQ for normal SD DVD's is exceptional and easily the best i have seen and previously owning a Meridian G series DVD player the Denon is far superior in PQ terms ! and watching DVD's like Toy Story / Monsters Inc / The Incredibles it is hard not to say that these films get very close to HD quality but once you see a good HD-DVD transfer like Serenity you then see how far ahead this format is and the detail is amazeing ! I would agree in that SD DVD just cannot really compete with HD-DVD players and it would be silly to try and compare a proper HD DVD image with a SD image as the detail is missing in the transfer originally and no matter how good the DVD player is it will not show something that is just not there.

I would say though that for the amount of DVD's i own " approx 1500 :eek: " the Denon is a great player and squeezes the best out of a great standard which is DVD but times are now changeing in that HD material is becomeing availible and i for one welcome this new technology as it really is very very good and IMO i see HD-DVD being the leader in this new Tech War !

[Timbo21]

Thanks for your thoughts recruit :thumbsup: .

IMO i see HD-DVD being the leader in this new Tech War !

It certainly sounds like Toshiba has done a pretty decent job with their first run of players, contrary to Blu-ray.
I initially thought it would be worth waiting for 2nd, or 3rd generation players, but the Toshiba's may not be such a poor long-term buy. Personally I think I can wait for the European release tho.

[Nuff_HiDeff]

I agree with a lot of the posts here. No matter what magic is applied to SD DVD, it just cannot come close to HD content, let alone HD DVD. The HD DVD stuff blows Sky HD out of the water also, although I will say that some of the movies on Sky Movies HD look VERY good - just not as good.

Slightly off-topic - Some of the Sky Movies HD stuff does not display MPG artifacts - does anyone know if some of the Sky HD content is in Mpeg4? That's the only explanation I can think of (scratches head)...