View Full Version : Pioneer DV989AVIS vs Toshiba HD-A1
BAN5HEE
21-06-2006, 9:36 PM
Will the Pioneer provide me with better Upscaled SD material then the Tosh? Or is the Tosh on par with upscaling SD material?
BAN5HEE
22-06-2006, 11:10 AM
Seems like this is a trick question eh? ;)
Matt Horne
24-06-2006, 10:35 AM
I was under the impression that the chip used in the Tosh is not that great so I would expect a high-end dvd palyer to top it (or any mid priced dvd player with a external scaler)
Matt
rhino2k
24-06-2006, 11:52 AM
pioneer with ease, if the tosh was even close to being as good as the 989 i think alot of us would have one ;) :grin:
hunts1uk
24-06-2006, 12:05 PM
pioneer with ease, if the tosh was even close to being as good as the 989 i think alot of us would have one ;) :grin:
Have you seen both player?
pioneer with ease, if the tosh was even close to being as good as the 989 i think alot of us would have one ;) :grin:
The Tosh is good at upscaling DVD and I would say on par with the Denon 3910 I had. IMO there's not that much difference between my 963 SDI via Lumagen and the Tosh in my setup.
Have you compared both players or are you making a general assumption ?
AVI
I'm watching some DVDs on my HD-A1 right now. It is doing a really good job of upscaling to 1080i - BUT it does seem to be adding some edge enhancement which I've confirmed is not on my display (tested it on 3 displays total).
That said, my other DVD player is a Panasonic DVD-S97 (Faroudja based). It's damn nice to watch upscaled stuff without all that Faroudja macroblocking.
hunts1uk
24-06-2006, 1:27 PM
I'm watching some DVDs on my HD-A1 right now. It is doing a really good job of upscaling to 1080i - BUT it does seem to be adding some edge enhancement which I've confirmed is not on my display (tested it on 3 isplays total).
.
I thought the tosh HDDVD player just outputed 480 on SD dvd's?
I thought the tosh HDDVD player just outputed 480 on SD dvd's?
It will upscale to 1080i provided you use HDMI and the display supports HDCP. If you go via component it's restricted to 480.
AVI
Nope - that's only on Component. I'm watching standard definition NTSC DVDs in 1080i right now.
Edit: oops, beaten to it!
hunts1uk
24-06-2006, 1:49 PM
I still haven't got around to swapping back to HDMI since the firmware upgrade,thanks for putting me right lads.:thumbsup:
Been very happy with the picture on component 480 as well on my sagem.
rhino2k
24-06-2006, 6:05 PM
Have you seen both player?
no, but if a former 1k SD-DVDP cant produce a better pic than a £400 HD-DVDP that supports SD-DVD i would be rather shocked tbph :confused:
and tbph i hope the tosh is as good, would help me justify buying one over a 989!
no, but if a former 1k SD-DVDP cant produce a better pic than a £400 HD-DVDP that supports SD-DVD i would be rather shocked tbph :confused:
and tbph i hope the tosh is as good, would help me justify buying one over a 989!
Have you seen HD-DVD action ? DVD's just don't look as good as I thought they did before seeing HD-DVD and that using SDI with a Lumagen in the mix.
If you think about it the Tosh is far more advanced than probably any DVD player so prepare to be shocked. Don't be fooled by it's affordability.
AVI
rhino2k
24-06-2006, 6:47 PM
Have you seen HD-DVD action ? DVD's just don't look as good as I thought they did before seeing HD-DVD and that using SDI with a Lumagen in the mix.
If you think about it the Tosh is far more advanced than probably any DVD player so prepare to be shocked. Don't be fooled by it's affordability.
AVI
i did mean the tosh playing SD dvds compared to the 989 playing SD dvd's :)
HD will obviously be better, much higher bitrates ect :cool:
i did mean the tosh playing SD dvds compared to the 989 playing SD dvd's :)
HD will obviously be better, much higher bitrates ect :cool:
Yea I know what you meant. But my point was that no matter how much you spend on a DVD player it will look poor in comparison once you use HD-DVD. DVD's that looked fantastic to me before I got HD-DVD don't look that good anymore.
AVI
welwynnick
24-06-2006, 8:06 PM
I don't think there's any point tryuing to compare apples with oranges.
I think the point about comparing an HD DVD player with an SD DVD player playing ONLY DVDs is valid, because many people have hundreds of DVDs, and a few people have a few HD DVDs.
DVDs will be used a a source for some time to come, and many people will be wondering if a good DVD player will play them better than an HD DVD player. If that's the case, then it may be worth having both SD & HD players.
The Secret's review of the Toshiba was pretty critical of it's SD DVD performance (though not HD...), but several people have said it does a reasonable job with DVDs.
Region 2 PAL DVDs, though?
Nick
Nuff_HiDeff
24-06-2006, 8:48 PM
The upscaling on the Toshiba is the best I have had from any standalone player. I have now retired my Denon! Can't speak for the 5910, but my 3910 could NOT measure up. This little A1 provides a MUCH better PQ on DVDs, for a paltry $500 - what a value! Not to mention the HD DVD material is just amazing - and that's a free bonus almost!
OK - there is that slight problem that it doesn't play PAL discs :) But that's what I use my HTPC for - I just send 576i to my VP directly.
I don't think there's any point tryuing to compare apples with oranges.
I think the point about comparing an HD DVD player with an SD DVD player playing ONLY DVDs is valid, because many people have hundreds of DVDs, and a few people have a few HD DVDs.
DVDs will be used a a source for some time to come, and many people will be wondering if a good DVD player will play them better than an HD DVD player. If that's the case, then it may be worth having both SD & HD players.
The Secret's review of the Toshiba was pretty critical of it's SD DVD performance (though not HD...), but several people have said it does a reasonable job with DVDs.
Region 2 PAL DVDs, though?
Nick
The US model only supports R1 NTSC so if you want a single player for HD-DVD and multiregion DVD today you're out of luck as it doesn't exist.
Personally I wanted a HD-DVD player to play HD-DVD only as I already own a decent DVD player and the fact that it's half decent with DVD is a bonus.
AVI
jpb123
26-06-2006, 8:08 PM
The Secret's review of the Toshiba was pretty critical of it's SD DVD performance (though not HD...), but several people have said it does a reasonable job with DVDs.
Region 2 PAL DVDs, though?
Nick
You don't really want to know how the Secret tests rated the Pio 989 then :rolleyes: It got a horrible result. Worse than the Toshiba.
Obviously the Secret test is just that, a test that check on some very specific details that in most cases have no relevance to watching a movie on DVD.
I've had a 989 for about 9 months. Before that I had a Denon 2900 which I loved. After seeing a 989 at a friends place I had to concide that the picture was better and with some reluctance I decided to get the 989 for my main system. I still kept the Denon 2900 for the bedroom as it is a great player.
After seeing a Toshiba HD in action in the US when it first came out I decided to import one after some of the first glitches had been fixed with firmware updates.
Having watched alot of DVDs the last couple of days I must say that I think the Toshiba puts out a better SD picture than the 989 does. Not by much but it is remarkable considering that it costs about half as much.
I will keep the 989 since the Toshiba doesn't play R2 discs. If it did I would probably sell the 989.
One more point. I'm watching on a Pio 506. On a 32 or smaller screen I don't think I would be able to tell a difference. Actually on a smaller screen I'm not sure how much i would have appreciated the quality HD delivers either. But delivers it does. The one reason I could see selling the 989 in the future is that I think I will lose interest watching SD as more releases come out in HD. I thought HD DVD would be about the quality of the downloaded .ts files I had been watching for the last year. Actually the HD DVDs delivers a vastly better picture than any files I've ever downloaded.
Buying today I would get an imported Toshiba and a cheap R2 player untill there is a HD that willl play R2 SD sometime this winter (If I still cared for SD that is). Then I would get one of those as well. Only if money didn't matter would I get an expensive SD player today. And in that case I would get the new Denon or Arcam instead since they will probably be the best SD players ever available.
welwynnick
26-06-2006, 8:29 PM
You don't really want to know how the Secret tests rated the Pio 989 then :rolleyes: It got a horrible result. Worse than the Toshiba.I scrutinised that test - then bought one anyway. Secrets gave high scores to the Denon 3910, but gave low marks to all the well regarded Arcams, Sonys and Philips that people always rave about. I think the 989 was criticised because the previous 868 had such good core decoding and e-interlacing performance. I think you have to base your buying decisions on ALL the sources of information available to you.
I bought the 969 for it's scaler-compatibility, but I just found out the Toshiba may do 480/576i anyway. Ah well.
What you say about the video performance of the Toshiba is very interesting though. Several people have said the same thing, and I wouldn't have expected that a new HD DVD player would have SD DVD performance licked from the outset. Interesting post - thanks!
Nick
As I said earlier in the thread, I like my Toshiba HD-A1 for upscaling. But, the scaling algorithm it's using is adding more ringing than my Faroudja-based Panasonic DVD-S97 does:
Toshiba left, Panasonic right:
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f383/lyris1/tosh-ee.jpg http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f383/lyris1/panasonic-ee.jpg
That said, the HD-A1 has no chroma upsampling or macroblocking enhance errors either.
AidenL
26-06-2006, 8:59 PM
So you guys would recommend buying a TOSHIBA HD DVD in preference to a decent upscaling SD DVV at the mo then?
Only downside is being stuck with R1 and no warranty? :)
So you guys would recommend buying a TOSHIBA HD DVD in preference to a decent upscaling SD DVV at the mo then?
Only downside is being stuck with R1 and no warranty? :)
It may not be the best but it's pretty good providing your ok with the fact that the player response time is slower than your avg DVD player. The only other drawback is once you watch HD-DVD going back to DVD just don't cut it anymore. I'm really pleased with the Tosh and the HD PQ on my 50" Fuji is stunning.
AVI
AidenL
26-06-2006, 9:10 PM
It may not be the best but it's pretty good providing your ok with the fact that the player response time is slower than your avg DVD player. The only other drawback is once you watch HD-DVD going back to DVD just don't cut it anymore. I'm really pleased with the Tosh and the HD PQ on my 50" Fuji is stunning.
AVI
I'm probably going to end up with the Fuji too, so its good to know it works well with it :)
My current DVD / HDD isn't upscaling, so I'd like to get a machine that would do it , especially if I drop the VP30 due to going with the Fujitsu.
Like you guys, I don't think its wise spending mega-bucks on a serious SD player at this stage - if the Tosh, which is a relative bargain at £430ish will do a decent job on ,admittedly R1 discs, might prove hard to pass up.
I'm actually amazed at how cheap it is, compared to the first SD DVD players way back then - I know the X1 version is bigger money, but its still not bad when you take inflation into account compared to what, 10 years ago? :)
Only downside is being stuck with R1 and no warranty? Yeah, but if you buy it from Movietyme, they have a 30-day warranty of their own - so it means you won't have to put up with the (unlikely) headache of importing a player and finding it dead on arrival.
And the slight added ringing as well.
I'm probably going to end up with the Fuji too, so its good to know it works well with it :)
My current DVD / HDD isn't upscaling, so I'd like to get a machine that would do it , especially if I drop the VP30 due to going with the Fujitsu.
Like you guys, I don't think its wise spending mega-bucks on a serious SD player at this stage - if the Tosh, which is a relative bargain at £430ish will do a decent job on ,admittedly R1 discs, might prove hard to pass up.
I'm actually amazed at how cheap it is, compared to the first SD DVD players way back then - I know the X1 version is bigger money, but its still not bad when you take inflation into account compared to what, 10 years ago? :)
I have a Lumagen HPD but feed the Tosh direct via a switch because I prefer the PQ at 1080i direct to the Fuji rather than scaled to 768p by the Lumagen.
I think the Tosh A1 is great value. I was a bit lucky and only paid £346 so even better. I already have a few hundred R2 & R1 DVD so will keep my exiting DVD player for the R2 stuff.
Go for it and enjoy !
rhino2k
26-06-2006, 10:37 PM
Yea I know what you meant. But my point was that no matter how much you spend on a DVD player it will look poor in comparison once you use HD-DVD. DVD's that looked fantastic to me before I got HD-DVD don't look that good anymore.
AVI
tbh i think i may be getting a marantz 7600 tomorrow, i would have got a hd player but i just cant see the point atm....
dont get me wrong, hd stuff is awesome but the problems with the players and the fact the cheaper one is butt ugly put me off. the HD-DVD prices are'nt too bad, but i know i would be really dissapointed if i could'nt have alot of titles now :(
im just hoping that the uk players will be able to be made MR somehow, so we can play all our sd and hd dvds :)
think i will likely be quite keen to get one when they are released here though :grin:
another point about the sd dvd's looking poor, if i get a hd-dvd and watch the few titles available, im going to think all my sd dvds are rubbish and get all depressed :rotfl:
Steve.EX
26-06-2006, 11:31 PM
because the previous 868 had such good core decoding and e-interlacing performance.Nick
As a (then) intrigued person i bought the 868i to have a play.
I would whole-heartedly disgree with this. Owning other better players it is my opinion that the 868s scaling and deinterlacing is typically poor. The component output is shocking. It's only real strength is its interlaced output over HDMI. This is not bad when fed to a suitable scaler.
BAN5HEE
27-06-2006, 10:23 AM
Sweet so Instead of getting a 989 I will get the tosh then. As one of the posters mentioned. I have over 600 DVD titles that I will be watching again and I want to watch them on a player that provides a decent SD picture.
Timbo21
27-06-2006, 10:39 AM
I don't see why people aren't waiting for the European release for the Tosh. After all you're only getting a handful of films now. If you wait you get R2 & a full warranty, & more films.
Uruloke
27-06-2006, 10:53 AM
I don't see why people aren't waiting for the European release for the Tosh. After all you're only getting a handful of films now. If you wait you get R2 & a full warranty, & more films.
You HOPE you get more films. And personally if I had to choose between the two regions, I'd take R1 over R2 any day.
I don't see why people aren't waiting for the European release for the Tosh. After all you're only getting a handful of films now. If you wait you get R2 & a full warranty, & more films.
It's a peronal choice thing and I didn't want to wait another 7-8 months. I've got 20 HD-DVD titles with more on the way and I suspect I will have many more by the time a UK player is available. Most of my DVD's are R1 anyway.
AVI
rooster-x
27-06-2006, 11:52 AM
I have to concur with Timbo21, and am waiting for the UK release, as most of my DVD collection are R2 Pal. The only concern I have is that it has been rumoured they are only going to release the expensive player and not the cheap one :mad:
Rooster-X
Nuff_HiDeff
27-06-2006, 12:06 PM
Getting the R1 version now at least lets me enjoy everything. I don't know what the release schedule will be like for R2 HD DVD titles, and there is no advantage for me in playing R2 titles over R1 titles.
And for R2 SD DVD titles, I just play them on my HTPC at 576i, into my VP.
I've got R1, R2, SACD, DVD-A, DTS, DVD-R, DVD-RW.
I've already got a DVD player for that lot and a seperate DVD-recorder. (not going to mention 360, XBOX, PS2 all able to play DVD's)
I haven't got room in my Arca for another blinkin player. I need a MR HD-DVD player than can do SACD and DVD-A's to replace my DVD player. Blink industry need to sort themselves out!
Timbo21
27-06-2006, 1:16 PM
You HOPE you get more films. And personally if I had to choose between the two regions, I'd take R1 over R2 any day.
Do you feel R1 are better transfers?
It's a peronal choice thing and I didn't want to wait another 7-8 months. I've got 20 HD-DVD titles with more on the way and I suspect I will have many more by the time a UK player is available. Most of my DVD's are R1 anyway.
AVI
20 titles is better than I thought it was ATM.
Packetfront
27-06-2006, 1:23 PM
Same for me, i got mostly R1 discs, about 200, and about 40 R2 discs.
So it doesn't matter for me really except i won't be able to rent HD-DVDs in Europe later on but i expect this will not be the case for many years here anyway as everything in Europe moves very slow when it comes to these things.
At least R1 discs were better before, i don't know now, but when DVD came onto the market the R1 discs were always much much better.
Uruloke
27-06-2006, 1:23 PM
Do you feel R1 are better transfers?
:) Hmmm, a very very good point. But perhaps this issue might onyl apply to current DVD's. HD-DVD's don't have the NTSC/PAL conversion issues that current DVD's have. So perhaps they'll all look the same, but some regions will have less extra's to fit more languages on? In which case perhaps R1 is the way to go? But hey I could be MILES off with that theory! :smashin:
I don't see why people aren't waiting for the European release for the Tosh. After all you're only getting a handful of films now. If you wait you get R2 & a full warranty, & more films.
More censored films you mean...
Well, right now, we don't know what's happing as regards to regional coding.
So, assuming that we're going to be locked into one region for awhile (until it gets cracked), I'd rather have the US region.
The reasons are simple. More films are available in less censored form in America compared to the UK (Continental European imports are sometimes safe, but then you have language issues).
USA:
Usually uncensored films
24 fps
UK:
Usually uncensored but more editing - BBFC cuts to films like Tomb Raider, The Matrix, Fight Club etc.
25 fps sped up
Exact same resolution as US discs - 1080p
Later releases, probably more expensive
So, even once UK players DO come out, if they haven't got around the region problem then I'll still buy US ones.
Packetfront
27-06-2006, 4:17 PM
Actually you don't know either if the European Toshiba player will play NTSC DVDs, it could be PAL only, we don't know yet.
rhino2k
27-06-2006, 4:21 PM
Sweet so Instead of getting a 989 I will get the tosh then. As one of the posters mentioned. I have over 600 DVD titles that I will be watching again and I want to watch them on a player that provides a decent SD picture.
remember it only plays R1 SD-DVD's also :thumbsup:
Packetfront
27-06-2006, 4:23 PM
remember it only plays R1 SD-DVD's also :thumbsup:
Or...you could re-encode all R2 PAL discs you have to R0 NTSC and then burn them on new DVDs, well that would be the case if you are a truly nerd.:grin:
rhino2k
27-06-2006, 4:24 PM
Or...you could re-encode all R2 PAL discs you have to R0 NTSC and then burn them on new DVDs, well that would be the case if you are a truly nerd.:grin:
:grin:
Actually you don't know either if the European Toshiba player will play NTSC DVDs, it could be PAL only, we don't know yet.
Actually, as luck would have it, to carry the official "DVD" logo, I think the player need to play PAL and NTSC discs.
That's because Region 2 is shared by Japan and some DVD consortium stuff states that all Region 2 players need to play both standards.
That's what I've heard anyway - it seems to make sense to me. (Have you ever found a player carrying the DVD logo that's spat an NTSC disc out?)
Actually, as luck would have it, to carry the official "DVD" logo, I think the player need to play PAL and NTSC discs.
That's because Region 2 is shared by Japan and some DVD consortium stuff states that all Region 2 players need to play both standards.
That's what I've heard anyway - it seems to make sense to me. (Have you ever found a player carrying the DVD logo that's spat an NTSC disc out?)
R2 Japanese DVD is NTSC I think. Hence the Tosh XA1 Jap/US supporting NTSC only.
AVI
AidenL
27-06-2006, 5:16 PM
After all my posts last night, I went and ordered an Arcam DV 79 today :blush:
Still , I'll probably get an A1 or Xa1 to cover all bases too :cool: :)
R2 Japanese DVD is NTSC I think. Hence the Tosh XA1 Jap/US supporting NTSC only.
AVI
Yeah, that's right :thumbsup:
rooster-x
27-06-2006, 5:56 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought HD-DVD is region free, so I should be able to play any American, Japanese or Europe released HD-DVD's, will just have SD-DVD region lock e.g. European HD-DVD player will only play R2 SD-DVD's. Is this not the case?
Rooster-X :confused:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought HD-DVD is region free, so I should be able to play any American, Japanese or Europe released HD-DVD's, will just have SD-DVD region lock e.g. European HD-DVD player will only play R2 SD-DVD's. Is this not the case?
Rooster-X :confused:
Current HD-DVD titles are region free but there is no guarantee that all future releases will be this way. Coding just wasn't enforced for the initial launch. Also Euro HD-DVD may be encoded at 25fps as opposed to 24fps and it's not clear if these will only play on Euro version players.
AVI
Packetfront
27-06-2006, 6:32 PM
Do we need to care really about what will happen in Europe?
I will import my discs so it will never be a problem.
Do we need to care really about what will happen in Europe?
I will import my discs so it will never be a problem.
I import anyway so it doesn't bother me but may bother some.
AVI
Uruloke
27-06-2006, 6:42 PM
Sometimes it's nice to just nip to my local Tesco and pick up that DVD I've been meaning to get for ages but never got round to it.
hddvdman
27-06-2006, 6:59 PM
Will the Pioneer provide me with better Upscaled SD material then the Tosh? Or is the Tosh on par with upscaling SD material?
my xa1 pic q is alot better than my 989 which i sold a while back on the forums, on hd and sd thorugh my pio 505xde