WARNING: Toshiba A1/XA1 in the UK at 120v/50Hz!

[KBDVD]

Hi Guy's, :hiya:

I have been contributing to a thread over on the AVS Forums in the US. On that thread it was recently suggested that operating the A1/XA1 in the UK via a 240v to 120v stepdown convertor might be a problem as both of these players are only designed to be run at 120v/60Hz NOT 120v/50Hz which is what we are feeding them in the UK via our stepdown units. Unfortunately it would now appear that these concerns are justified. :(

As a result of the above discussion I e-mailed Toshiba in the US with the following question:

"Hi, I have imported one of your XA1 HD-DVD players into the UK and I'm very pleased with it's performance thus far. I am powering the player via a 240v/120v stepdown transformer and it appears to be working perfectly. However, a post on the AVS Forums has suggested that as the instruction manual states that the power rating of this player is "120v @ 60Hz" NOT 120v @ 50/60Hz as is apparently often the case in the US, this might mean that I could in fact fry the transformer in the XA1 over time as the XA1's transformer "MAY" not have enough "headroom" available and is not designed to be run @ 120v @ 50Hz here in the UK.

The poster on the AVS Forums states: "It's really an unknown what the transformer is rated for in the Toshiba players. There are plenty of products rated as 120 volts yet are listed as 50/60Hz. The fact that it is not listed as 50Hz on the Toshiba tells me the transformer is not spec'd for 50Hz at the 90 watt current needs of the Toshiba player and have safety margin. Time will tell...you may start seeing dead supplies in the UK.

So, can you kindly advise me if operating the XA1 via 120v @ 50hz in the UK may possibly, (or worse still definately) risk permenant damage to the player? Thanks very much in advance for your soonest reply."


I have just received the following reply from Toshiba:



"Dear Keith,

Thanks for writing!

We appreciate your interest in Toshiba.

Our products are designed specifically for use in the United States. Most overseas countries use different voltages and cycles than the United States. While the standard in the states is 110 volts at 60Hz, many other countries use 220-240 volts at 50Hz. A voltage adapter may be used to lower the voltage to 110 volts. However, there is nothing to convert the foreign cycles from 50Hz to 60Hz. This may cause the unit’s power supply to operate at a higher temperature than that for which it was designed. It could eventually lead to a decreased life span of the equipment.

Please write back if I can assist you further.

Rick

Toshiba Customer Service"



So that's pretty conclusive, operating the A1/XA1 in the UK at 120v @ 50Hz MAY INDEED result in overheating problems and a reduced lifespan for the players! :thumbsdow :(

Theres not much that we can do about the situation I suppose so I intend to just go ahead and continue to enjoy my XA1 for as long as it lasts! :god:

.................. I just thought you should all be aware of this potential problem. :oops:

Here's a link to the AVS Forums thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=667248&page=109&pp=30

Keith.

[klacey]

Cheers for the info Keith, like you said not much we can do now. I only watch one movie at a time 2 1/2 hours max, so hopefully shouldnt get an overheat problem. Havent noticed much heat thus far.

[shaithis]

Hopefully, when the Tosh releases in EUrope we will be able to buy european PSUs for them :)

[klacey]

Wonder if this will be the same for blu-ray players.

[KBDVD]

Yes, it's a bit of a bummer aint it! :thumbsdow

It might be worthwhile making sure that you dont leave these players on "standby" all of the time while you are not using them and instead make sure that you disconnect these players from the mains completely when they are not in use! :lesson:

Keith.

[klacey]

Yes, it's a bit of a bummer aint it! :thumbsdow

It might be worthwhile making sure that you dont leave these players on "standby" all of the time while you are not using them and instead make sure that you disconnect these players from the mains completely when they are not in use! :lesson:

Keith.

i do anyway, so hope its enough.

[Cable Monkey]

Surely it would be no great difficulty to get a replacement transformer rated at 230/50? Even if you couldn't get them it would not be outlandishly expensive to get them made specially. It is not a huge technical or logistical problem, all it requires is someone with the balls to do it to their beloved player!

[Roughneck1]

Transformers that i have all over my house are 50/60hz

[Mr.D]

This sounds like standard pat pseudotech answer from a large electronics manufacturer, and one that its very US centric to boot. I suspect you have nothing to worry about.

[Krobar]

Find a Japanese player owner check what PSU model is fitted to their HD-XA1. I'd be happy to bet it is identical (Japan is 50Hz in some areas and 60hz in others). AFAIK with Toroidal supplies they just need to be a little larger to accomodate 50hz but dont need specific support (I suspect Tosh is switching supply though).

[illustrator]

Transformers haven't been used in Panasonic & Sony home av equipment for the past 5 years, so I should think Tosh would be the same

Today’s players & recorders use switched mode power supplies which are smaller, lighter, more efficient and don’t care if you plug 50Hz or 60Hz in to them as the mains voltage is turned into dc then chopped up by the controller to drop it down to the correct internal voltage for the machine.

There as a good chance the internal psu may handle 240v as it is easier to design & more economical, a unit that suits all than produce separate ones for each countries mains supplies

I think the reply from Toshiba is the stock customer service “Don’t do it then you can’t blame us for wrong advice if everything goes up in smoke” rather than the views of an actual engineer that works on the gear

[Mr.D]

http://www.international-electrical-supplies.com/electricity1.html


doubt you have anything to worry about on the frequency cycles.

[Roughneck1]

http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/searchPage2.jsp?Ntt=portable+step+down+transformer s&newSearch=true&Nto=voltage+transformers&Nty=1&showImages=true&N=411&Ntk=gensearch

This is where i have the 10 in my house from, i use this one:

SC5300/2
UNBRANDED

[KBDVD]

[url]This is where i have the 10 in my house from, i use this one:

SC5300/2
UNBRANDED

Hi Craig! :hiya:

(I'm loving the XA1 mate!) :smashin:

Yep, that's the exact same Tacima Stepdown unit that I'm using! (The SC5300/2 model number is a Tacima one.) :cool:

This seems to be an excellent product, BUT as I understand it, it is still only able to send 120V @ 50Hz to our players NOT 120v @ 60Hz which is the specified requirement for the Toshiba HD-DVD players according to many people including Toshiba US themselves. :(

I sincerely hope that this will not prove to be an issue and as has been said already in this thread, Toshiba's Customer Service Dept are probably ensuring that they "cover their asses" with their e-mailed reply to me. :rolleyes:

However, it is a point of fact that the Instruction Manuals for these machine do clearly state "120v/60Hz" as the requirement for these machines as opposed to "120v/50/60Hz" which is apparently what is often quoted for other pieces of kit in the US that are designed to operate at both 60Hz and 50Hz.

For all our sakes let's hope that Toshiba is just being "over-cautious" and that this does not prove to be a "real" problem in the medium to long-term. :god:

Keith.

[Avi]

This sounds like standard pat pseudotech answer from a large electronics manufacturer, and one that its very US centric to boot. I suspect you have nothing to worry about.


I agree. The only problem I've read about relating to a power problems appeared to be due to the use of an under rated (45w) step down transformer.

Also ensure the stepdown transformer has a thermal fuse that prevents it from overheating and damaging attached kit.


AVI

[Edgeyboy]

I agree. The only problem I've read about relating to a power problems appeared to be due to the use of an under rated (45w) step down transformer.

Also ensure the stepdown transformer has a thermal fuse that prevents it from overheating and damaging attached kit.


AVI

AVI: Where did you get your transformer from ?

[spikerules]

AVI: Where did you get your transformer from ?

I believe Avi bought something similar to this > http://cgi.ebay.com/100W-Step-Down-Transformer-240V-to-110V-Converter_W0QQitemZ9730967156QQcategoryZ294QQssPag eNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I also bought something like this, but it was from I different seller.

[Avi]

AVI: Where did you get your transformer from ?


I bought it on ebay from aquarius-computers for £7.99. It's rated at 100w and has a thermal fuse. After 4-5 hours of use it gets warm but not hot.

AVI

[spikerules]

I bought it on ebay from aquarius-computers for £7.99. It's rated at 100w and has a thermal fuse. After 4-5 hours of use it gets warm but not hot.

AVI

Yep, thats the one I thought you bought... aquarius aren't selling them anymore, but that link that I posted above seems to be identical to the ones we bought... can you confrim AVI?

[Mike_CA]

I would agree with their explaination that overheating can occur if they were talking about driving a 60 Hz AC motor with 50 Hz. But since everything in the player is using DC, overheating should not be a problem.

The only problem that I could possibly see would be that 50 Hz would require better regulation of the power supply which could cause intermittent problems if this was not perfromed well. If the problems are currently no worse than what is occuring in the US, I wouldn't worry about it.

[martian1]

Don't know if this is relevent but i imported a pioneer dvd player donkeys ago [must be about 6- 7yrs old]and it is still running great..:grin: Its a USA model with step down transformer.

[Matt Horne]

Utter utter ******** :)

Currently I am running on stepdowns :

Us Gamecube, Jpn PS2, DVHS players, Imported dvd players, gameboys and a lexicon CP3.

Just make sure you buy a nice over powered stepdown and you will have no problems. Been using imported electronics for years.. my DVHS players which is currently in the rack works like a charm.

Basically imho if you spend £500 on the player then shortchanging it with a stepdown costinf £10 from ebay is asking for trouble. Go to Maplins/tlc direct spend a bit more and relax in the knowledge thats everything will be ok..

Matt

[Avi]

Utter utter ******** :)

Currently I am running on stepdowns :

Us Gamecube, Jpn PS2, DVHS players, Imported dvd players, gameboys and a lexicon CP3.

Just make sure you buy a nice over powered stepdown and you will have no problems. Been using imported electronics for years.. my DVHS players which is currently in the rack works like a charm.

Basically imho if you spend £500 on the player then shortchanging it with a stepdown costinf £10 from ebay is asking for trouble. Go to Maplins/tlc direct spend a bit more and relax in the knowledge thats everything will be ok..

Matt


M8 I buy loads of stuff on Ebay and often find the same item (and I mean the same) is twice even three the price at Maplins. Just make sure you know what your buying and it's capable of doing the job.

AVI

[RyanK]

M8 I buy loads of stuff on Ebay and often find the same item (and I mean the same) is twice even three the price at Maplins. Just make sure you know what your buying and it's capable of doing the job.

AVI


I agree my converter off ebay cost £9.99 plus postage. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=294&item=9724303658

Maplins charge £24.99 for the same model.

Plus this model is CE rated

[Matt Horne]

:) I actually meant buying a stepdown above the wattage you need.. I recommend these :

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Transformer_Index/USA_110volt_Convertor_Transformer/index.html

The tacima ones... never failed me so far.. ( I alos did not mean specifically use maplins.. though they do have the odd bargain :) )

Again my other comment was the fact that the 50/60 hz thing is a complete myth.. never had any probs with running imported equipment with stepdowns :)

[Rahosi]

From what I've read & photographs (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tt-hardware.com%2Fmodules.php%3Fname%3DNews%26file%3D article%26sid%3D9200&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools), internally it is more like an (obsolete) computer rather than 'hi-fi'.

Has anybody actually taken the lid off and looked at the power supply? Is it a computer type PSU & does it have a specification sticker etc?

Even if the PSU doesn't have a rating sticker, there is a fair chance it has a model number which could be 'googled'.

I would be very surprised if the power supply isn't of the 'world2world' variety.

Toshiba's comment could well be head office speak to protect the differing price structure in it's regional operations.

[darrentheduck]

Overheating will not be a problem.

I import tons of PA equipment from the USA, infact i recently imported a Mesa Boogie Dual Rec amp head which runs obviously on 60Hz. I went down and met with Mesa's head tech guy in the UK and basically the only problem will be that your gear wears out sooner than a UK version would.

Obviously, you need to make damn sure you match the power input and output with your needs. My amp should only require 150w but i need a transformed rated at 1Kw to use it to its full potential here in the UK.

[KBDVD]

Overheating will not be a problem. The only problem will be that your gear wears out sooner than a UK version would.

Hi darrentheduck, :hiya:

I'm not concerned that the players might be a fire risk. ..... With an adequate stepdown unit this should not be the case. It's the very fact that the player is going to "wear out sooner than a UK version" that is my concern! :eek: ......... And I think the reason that it will potentialy do this is due to the cumulative long-term effect of overtaxing it's psu. :god:

Keith.

[Avi]

Overheating will not be a problem.

I import tons of PA equipment from the USA, infact i recently imported a Mesa Boogie Dual Rec amp head which runs obviously on 60Hz. I went down and met with Mesa's head tech guy in the UK and basically the only problem will be that your gear wears out sooner than a UK version would.

Obviously, you need to make damn sure you match the power input and output with your needs. My amp should only require 150w but i need a transformed rated at 1Kw to use it to its full potential here in the UK.

Someone over on AVS attached the Tosh to a device that measures power consumptiong over several HD titles. I'll try to dig out the post but from memory his findings are;

1) Avg 46 watts
2) Peak 76 watts
3) Standby ?? (I can't recall but very low)

Peak is always the issue so enure your supply can cope with this.

AVI

[Avi]

Hi mate, :hiya:

The fact that the player is going to "wear out sooner" than a UK version is EXACTLY the concern that I have! :eek: ......... And I think the reason that it will potentially do this is due to the possible overheating of it's psu. :god:

Keith.


M8 it means your player will only last 10 years instead of 12. I honestly don't think this will be a real world issue. It's a bit like the conern over plasma displays only lasting 60,000 hours before they are half as bright :eek: I'll only get 13 years out of mine watching it 12 hours a day :devil:

The world of MTBF is a very dark and cautious one - avoid :grin:

AVI

[darrentheduck]

Im not a techie with this sort of thing but my understanding is that all your components will experience higher levels of wear than they normally would. The biggest problem on my amp is the valves wearing out quickly, but all the components in my amp are tuned to suit 60Hz.

Might be the case that in your HD-DVD player all the components are 'international' and only the PSU will be the problem, however if the PSU is handling 50Hz rather than 60Hz it will probably wear down all your components quicker.

Being as this is fairly new tech i'd imagine you'll replace it before it wears out!

[KBDVD]

M8 it means your player will only last 10 years instead of 12. I honestly don't think this will be a real world issue. It's a bit like the conern over plasma displays only lasting 60,000 hours before they are half as bright :eek: I'll only get 13 years out of mine watching it 12 hours a day :devil:

The world of MTBF is a very dark and cautious one - avoid :grin:

AVI

Hi Avi, :hiya:

Yep, I sure accept your point, and seeing as how I myself have already upgraded my plasma screen 4 times in the past 5 years, and will probably move on again to a true 1080p display before the years out, "longevity" on that scale is certainly not an issue! ........

......... Just so long as it is indeed 10 years instead of 12, NOT 1 year instead of 12! :lease:

Keith.

[Mr.D]

Its highly unlikely any of the components past the power supply use AC. It will all be DC and frequency doesn't come into it.

If the PSU had difficulties with 50Hz vs 60Hz AC I seriously doubt it would operate at all , there would be some sort fo shutdown mechanism rather than risk the PSU failing catastrophically and turning into a potential fire hazard.

And finally , consumer electronics are designed to pass fairly stringent flamability limits. It would likely smoke a fair old bit but you'd have to be very unlucky for it to cause a fire.

[Matt Horne]

I'm still using a Us Pioneer DV606 from about 8 years back :).. so no worries there..

Matt

[darrentheduck]

Its highly unlikely any of the components past the power supply use AC. It will all be DC and frequency doesn't come into it.

If the PSU had difficulties with 50Hz vs 60Hz AC I seriously doubt it would operate at all , there would be some sort fo shutdown mechanism rather than risk the PSU failing catastrophically and turning into a potential fire hazard.

And finally , consumer electronics are designed to pass fairly stringent flamability limits. It would likely smoke a fair old bit but you'd have to be very unlucky for it to cause a fire.

Fair point with the DC, but a PSU will function the same with 50Hz or 60Hz, only difference will be if you mis-match your gear will wear down sooner! All my PA gear says 'DO NOT USE WITH 50Hz' but it works fine appart from the fact that it will be drawing more power than it normally would and will be causing the gear to wear out faster.

As i said, there will be no problem and at a worst case this would cut a few years off your gear. Surely a well made HD-DVD will last for atleast 6 years on a different cycle, and by then this HD-DVD will surely be replaced by a faster, slimmer and larger breasted model.

[Edgeyboy]

Overheating will not be a problem.

I import tons of PA equipment from the USA, infact i recently imported a Mesa Boogie Dual Rec amp head which runs obviously on 60Hz. I went down and met with Mesa's head tech guy in the UK and basically the only problem will be that your gear wears out sooner than a UK version would.

Obviously, you need to make damn sure you match the power input and output with your needs. My amp should only require 150w but i need a transformed rated at 1Kw to use it to its full potential here in the UK.

Does a MESA amp use a switch mode power supply though ?

[Nic Rhodes]

I can't see why anyone would worry about this or why valves might wear out sooner either. Their load is down to voltages and currents and all other things being the same, these will not change.

[harveyxxx]

hi craig do you use an american imported tv if so how does it perform

simon

[simonharris]

That's just a standard disclaimer from Toshiba - don't worry about it.

[Roughneck1]

hi craig do you use an american imported tv if so how does it perform

simon

Hi, no sorry i don't - my main TV is a Samsung 67" DLP from Costco ! :-)

I do have other stuff around the house from when i use to live in San Diego, lava lamps, dvd players, XBOX360, camcorder, IPOD even intruder alarms etc - all work no problem and have done for many many years. These "plant pot" transformers have a fuse that can be very easily changed at the top of it, so any spikes etc it pops and you just swap them over. Doesn't get hot or anything and has 2 outlets too so you can double up.

100% confidence that my HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, when it arrives will work fine until i get shot or upgrade.

[MAW]

I take it the concern is that the peaks on a 50Hz supply will be higher than on a 60Hz, to keep RMS output at 120V?? I've not got the scientific calculator with me and can't be bothered to us ethe clunky windows one, sitting in an internet cafe, but surely this is paranoia beyond belief! I don't have one yet, but I'll be talking to you soon, Craig, and will not be worried about this issue. I think we are talking about 5% higher peaks to allow for their slightly less frequent occurrence, but of course slightly longer sustain. That must be well within tolerance of any well designed piece of kit. The mains voltage could fluctuate more than this, especially in USA. This is a problem with internet forums, one 'technically correct' but rather over hyped thory, and the world goes into paranoid mode. Calm down dears, it's not even a commercial!

[Avi]

I take it the concern is that the peaks on a 50Hz supply will be higher than on a 60Hz, to keep RMS output at 120V?? I've not got the scientific calculator with me and can't be bothered to us ethe clunky windows one, sitting in an internet cafe, but surely this is paranoia beyond belief! I don't have one yet, but I'll be talking to you soon, Craig, and will not be worried about this issue. I think we are talking about 5% higher peaks to allow for their slightly less frequent occurrence, but of course slightly longer sustain. That must be well within tolerance of any well designed piece of kit. The mains voltage could fluctuate more than this, especially in USA. This is a problem with internet forums, one 'technically correct' but rather over hyped thory, and the world goes into paranoid mode. Calm down dears, it's not even a commercial!


Agree total paranoia - For those you are still concered put a simple mains surge/filter block before the step down trany. Some only cost a few pounds offer some additional protection.

Also remember UK air has a lower CO2 content than the US so remember to add dry ice to the room when viewing HD-DVD on a US model or it might shoten it's life. :devil:

Martin - Tignes ! the air's even thinner so the PSU will never handle this. Sorry you'll need to buy the £1000 Tosh player designed for France :grin:

AVI

[JohnWH]

I take it the concern is that the peaks on a 50Hz supply will be higher than on a 60Hz, to keep RMS output at 120V?? I've not got the scientific calculator with me and can't be bothered to us ethe clunky windows one, sitting in an internet cafe, but surely this is paranoia beyond belief! I don't have one yet, but I'll be talking to you soon, Craig, and will not be worried about this issue. I think we are talking about 5% higher peaks to allow for their slightly less frequent occurrence, but of course slightly longer sustain. That must be well within tolerance of any well designed piece of kit. The mains voltage could fluctuate more than this, especially in USA. This is a problem with internet forums, one 'technically correct' but rather over hyped thory, and the world goes into paranoid mode. Calm down dears, it's not even a commercial!

Ha, was just going to post along the same lines!

The problem is people always worry when they don't understand, for this reason manufacturers are forced to make overly conservative statements just to avoid spending all their time in court.

John

[Packetfront]

As the Toshibas are mainly built by PC components and connectors on the mainboard it should just be easy to swap the PSU inside and use a standard PSU for computers, the connectors are the same so it shouldn't be a big deal.

[Krobar]

I saw the pics of the internals of the Tosh, they dont look to be normal connectors or pinouts. With some careful rewiring though I reckon a rackmount ATX PSU could probably be used. This is all unnecessary though since the PSU almost certainly supports 50hz.

[shand754]

As I HD A1 owner I have kept an eye on this thread with interest.

I have the same step down transformer that AVI has, bought from Aquarius via ebay.

I have noticed it runs slightly hot however last night when downloading the new firmware it was particularly warm. Should I be worried?

[dabbler]

Saw this thread (and the US thread) and immediatly became concerned - possible loss of player - fire - eeeek.
Then read fact that Japan also 100V and 50 or 60hz. Me thinks that maybe Toshiba being cautious and probably launched player with same power supply but some flexibility in its use. After all UK was 240v - now were 230v. When did that happen? My old JVC TV says 220-240V on the back. Anyway - to be on safe side - will ensure mains is off when not in use to avoid issues and when european version player is launched im sure a UK PSU can be bought.

[crispybig]

I take it the concern is that the peaks on a 50Hz supply will be higher than on a 60Hz, to keep RMS output at 120V?? [...] I think we are talking about 5% higher peaks to allow for their slightly less frequent occurrence, but of course slightly longer sustain.Just to put the record straight, this is misinformation.

:lesson: Frequency has no bearing on RMS calculations. For a sine wave RMS is .707 x peak.

120V RMS at 50Hz equals 170V peak.

120V RMS at 60Hz equals 170V peak.

Your mains input will not be a sine wave of course, but the same principle applies - frequency is not a factor.

[Krobar]

Toroidal transformers should be larger for 50Hz but most 60hz transformer have enough headroom to deal with it. As for switching PSUs, I dont think it makes any difference.

[MAW]

Just to put the record straight, this is misinformation.

On reflection you are of course right. That means the whole worry is complete and utter rowlocks as far as I can see. The internal transformer certainly will not give a damn what the frequency is, many multi voltage devices have to put up with differing frequencies, and whilst I appreciate that they 'expect' it, it has no bearing on the design.