How do I get Dolby HD and DTS HD sound?

[Wilt]

Hi

When I get PS3 for Blueray will i need a new amp to enjoy the HD sounds? Currently own a 7.1 amp by Yamaha. All the new HD players are out soon in the US/JAP but can't find any amps that support the new sound formats.

Cheers

[jackal]

Hi

When I get PS3 for Blueray will i need a new amp to enjoy the HD sounds? Currently own a 7.1 amp by Yamaha. All the new HD players are out soon in the US/JAP but can't find any amps that support the new sound formats.

Cheers


If your amp has 5/6/7 analogue channels input then you'll be able to enjoy these formats.

[DanielTS]

If the HD interactive feature has to be used, the HD player has to decode Dolby True HD or DTS HD and the mixed PCM signal is transported from the HD player to a multi channel PCM-capable A/V receiver.

http://www.dolby.com/images/consumer/technology/trueHD/fig2.jpg
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/trueHD/AVRs/trueHD_avrs_1.html

[Wilt]

So no need to by an amp marked with Dolby True HD and DTS HD logo? So all I need to do is have an optical cable from the PS3 into my amp and I can enjoy the new sounds?

[Angry the Clown]

Wilt, the basic answer if you want to use the PS3 for Blu Ray playback and wish to enjoy the new formats is yes, you will need a new receiver/pre-amp that features HDMI 1.3 input and the ability to decode Dolby True HD, DTS HD (and Dolby Digital Plus). Such receivers/pre-amps are likely to begin appearing around October I would imagine. None have been announced as yet.

DTS HD and Dolby True HD are not passed over optical of coax connections. DTS HD and True HD wil be delivered in two forms - the first being over an HDMI 1.3 connection, and the second being via multi-channel analogue outputs built into the Blu Ray player. For them to be passed over analogue, you would actually require a player that has the ability to decode these lossless codecs internally and none of the first gen Blu Ray Players (inc the PS3) due this year are actually going to boast the ability to do this. The players announced so far will deliver uncompressed PCM and Dolby and DTS as we already know them, and that's about it.

In your case, you'd run HDMI 1.3 from the PS3 into an amp that supports all the new codecs, and that'll be it.

[HeweyBoy101]

Wilt, the basic answer if you want to use the PS3 for Blu Ray playback and wish to enjoy the new formats is yes, you will need a new receiver/pre-amp that features HDMI 1.3 input and the ability to decode Dolby True HD, DTS HD (and Dolby Digital Plus). Such receivers/pre-amps are likely to begin appearing around October I would imagine. None have been announced as yet.

DTS HD and Dolby True HD are not passed over optical of coax connections. DTS HD and True HD wil be delivered in two forms - the first being over an HDMI 1.3 connection, and the second being via multi-channel analogue outputs built into the Blu Ray player. For them to be passed over analogue, you would actually require a player that has the ability to decode these lossless codecs internally and none of the first gen Blu Ray Players (inc the PS3) due this year are actually going to boast the ability to do this. The players announced so far will deliver uncompressed PCM and Dolby and DTS as we already know them, and that's about it.

In your case, you'd run HDMI 1.3 from the PS3 into an amp that supports all the new codecs, and that'll be it.

If that's the case I definately won't be buying BluRay anytim soon. Enhanced resolution sound formats are AS important to me as are HD pictures. I want a player that gives me DTS HD and Dolby Hd audio decoding with (minimum) 5.1 analogue output. I understand that the Toshiba HD-DVD player (at least the more expensive version yet to be released) will have this decoding on-board.

[Rimmer]

Wilt, the basic answer if you want to use the PS3 for Blu Ray playback and wish to enjoy the new formats is yes, you will need a new receiver/pre-amp that features HDMI 1.3 input and the ability to decode Dolby True HD, DTS HD (and Dolby Digital Plus). Such receivers/pre-amps are likely to begin appearing around October I would imagine. None have been announced as yet.

DTS HD and Dolby True HD are not passed over optical of coax connections. DTS HD and True HD wil be delivered in two forms - the first being over an HDMI 1.3 connection, and the second being via multi-channel analogue outputs built into the Blu Ray player. For them to be passed over analogue, you would actually require a player that has the ability to decode these lossless codecs internally and none of the first gen Blu Ray Players (inc the PS3) due this year are actually going to boast the ability to do this. The players announced so far will deliver uncompressed PCM and Dolby and DTS as we already know them, and that's about it.

In your case, you'd run HDMI 1.3 from the PS3 into an amp that supports all the new codecs, and that'll be it.

That's not what the above Dolby article says at all.

It says the lossless soundtracks will be decoded by the player, and output as six or eight channel PCM over HDMI or Firewire, or - and this is excellent news - as an analogue signal over RCA phono outputs. This surprisingly decision to allow high resolution audio over analogue phono connections means that people will be able to enjoy TrueHD without replacing their existing amplifiers.

[Angry the Clown]

It says the lossless soundtracks will be decoded by the player, and output as six or eight channel PCM over HDMI or Firewire, or - and this is excellent news - as an analogue signal over RCA phono outputs. This surprisingly decision to allow high resolution audio over analogue phono connections means that people will be able to enjoy TrueHD without replacing their existing amplifiers.


Well that doesn't actually conflict much with what I was saying. This route is ONLY available to the user if the player can decode multi-channel True HD and pass the decoded/unpacked pcm signal to existing amps...etc. It's not mandatory that players do the decoding internally.

To make this point clearer. The first HD DVD players can only decode two-channel True HD, and the first Blu Ray Players can't decode True HD or DTS HD in any form internally in order for the signal to be passed to existing equipment. Like I say, if you want to experience DTS HD and Dolby True HD with existing equipment - just as that Dolby article states - you'll need a player that can decode the new formats. If you want first gen Blu Ray hardware out this year to pass the new codecs the decoding will have to be done on the receiver/pre-amp end assuming one is using a receiver/pre-amp new enough to boast the aility to decode all the new codecs.

[nero0410]

HD Sound??:confused: ??

I thought HD was just picture, not sound as well:god:

So much for being advised that buying a 7.1 amp/reciever is 'futureproof'.

tris

[AML]

The truth is that we get lied to all the time so we buy the products that are available at that time.
Otherwise, we would all be waiting for the next best thing and makers wouldnt have any money to make that new thing.

HD just means high definition. It can be tacked on to sound as well as picture.

Although, you wont notice as big an improvement with the sound as you will with the picture since DVD already offers 5.1 and even 6.1 with some DVDs.

The difference in picture will be more apparent.

Im hopping the new codecs will be clearer with better positional audio. To be honest with most 5.1 dvds I dont really hear the rear channelse being used enough.

[JamesL]

The first HD DVD players can only decode two-channel True HD
The (HD DVD) Toshiba HD-XA1 has 24-bit/192kHz DACs for multi-channel audio outputs (albeit limited to 5.1 channels rather than 7.1). So whilst Dolby True HD is two channel we will still benefit from Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD soundtracks.

[Wilt]

Oh this is all so confusing for me.

Ok so if I get the PS3, i'll need an amp, which support the new sound formats, because the PS3 doesn't do it itself internally.

But if the PS3 could decode it internally, I can use an existing amp which only has normal Dolby DD and DTS, but will need to connect via HDMI 1.3 and not optical.

Is this correct?

[Angry the Clown]

The (HD DVD) Toshiba HD-XA1 has 24-bit/192kHz DACs for multi-channel audio outputs (albeit limited to 5.1 channels rather than 7.1). So whilst Dolby True HD is two channel we will still benefit from Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD soundtracks.

That's correct, yes. There's actually been some discussion that the support the players carry for DTS HD actually means they are only able to extract the legacy DTS strand from the full track and deliver that, but I'm not so sure that will be the case. I believe the HD DVD of Chronos out this month sports a DTS HD track so owners will know for sure then. Certainly the Toshiba players are slighty ahead of the Blu Ray players in terms of their ability to support new codecs.


Ok so if I get the PS3, i'll need an amp, which support the new sound formats, because the PS3 doesn't do it itself internally.

That's right. An amp with an HDMI 1.3 input (the HDMI 1.3 spec is tailored to handle True HD and DTS HD amongst other things).

But if the PS3 could decode it internally, I can use an existing amp which only has normal Dolby DD and DTS, but will need to connect via HDMI 1.3 and not optical.

Again yes. If the PS3 also sported multi-channel analogue outputs (which, unless they have changed the spec, it wont) you could feed the signal into existing equipment that way [should an existing receiver/pre-amp lack HDMI].

It is confusing. There’s no real way to try and explain it best and have it make sense (believe me, I’ve tried my best). The great fear is a lot of people are going to discover the shortcomings of first generation hardware after they have made the investment in it.

[robo989]

Dunno what you lot are all stressing for, its a new tech you have to pay for...

Did you get your DD5.1\DTS receivers for free? :rolleyes:

[Boilface]

Im hopping the new codecs will be clearer with better positional audio. To be honest with most 5.1 dvds I dont really hear the rear channelse being used enough.

It's great to hear a senior member say this because I feel exactly the same way. I used to think that my surround sound was setup incorrectly.

[Ian_S]

OK IMO Rimmer was on the right lines even for PS3...

If you want the best compatibility and are buying a receiver now, then an HDMI 1.1 with multi-channel PCM input capable unit is they way to go. (Ignoring any issues HDMI may have with jitter.) I imagine that the PS3 will have HDMI output, and if it doesn't have analogue outs, this will be **the only way to get the interactive features with sound at full quality** The same applies for both HD-DVD and Blu-ray players.

To maintain compatibility with existing receivers/decoders, we are being told that players will also have a digital coax or toslink output and the players will also output a Dolby Digital or DTS bitstream over these to be decoded by existing equipment. OF course, this won't be DTS-HD or TrueHD quality, however in the case of DD, you may well find that the players downmix to the DD maximum rate of 640Kbps, rather than the much more common 448Kbps found on most releases today. So there may be some improvement in quality. For DTS which already uses much higher rates, things may be much the same, which is already quite good IMO.

For non-gamers, it's highly likely that actual players will have analogue outputs, either 5.1 or 7.1, that will carry full quality decoded audio, either direct from the movie or with the interactive stuff.

Beware of 1st generation products. The chipset used in the Toshiba's for example is not capable of 5.1 decoding of Dolby TrueHD. The specs imply DTS-HD 5.1 decoding, but who knows until they hit the streets. Also, who knows what the studios are going to include on the actual discs. If they initially stick with DTS, or Dolby Digital Plus, then to start with it may not matter.

HDMI 1.3: You don't need it. If it were available and if you had a reciever that could decode TrueHD or DTS-HD bitstreams, you would not be able to use any of the interactive features in this configuration. To use these features, the player would have to revert to outputting PCM streams over HDMI to the receiver, which can be done in theory with HDMI 1.1...

My advice for now would be if you want to use HDMI, look for a 1.1 based solution. If you want the highest quality audio signal possible, look for a player that has analogue outputs and is capable of decoding the right number of channels in the right format. The Toshiba's whilst being first to market are not going to be the best audiophile solution.

[Ian_S]

Ok so if I get the PS3, i'll need an amp, which support the new sound formats, because the PS3 doesn't do it itself internally.
That's right. An amp with an HDMI 1.3 input (the HDMI 1.3 spec is tailored to handle True HD and DTS HD amongst other things).
Sorry, I can't agree with that. There is no way Sony will not decode onboard with the PS3. If they do that then most of the new stuff on the Blu-ray discs will be unplayable. You CANNOT use interactive features over HDMI 1.3, so bringing out PS3 requiring an HDMI 1.3 link to play movies would be suicide as NO-ONE would have a decoder capable of doing the job.

The PS3 has to be able to decode internally or else it will be useless with Blu-ray movies. So, it will either have to output over HDMI 1.1 or, provide a standard coax or optical digital out and downmix to standard DD or DTS streams.


But if the PS3 could decode it internally, I can use an existing amp which only has normal Dolby DD and DTS, but will need to connect via HDMI 1.3 and not optical.
Again yes. If the PS3 also sported multi-channel analogue outputs (which, unless they have changed the spec, it wont) you could feed the signal into existing equipment that way [should an existing receiver/pre-amp lack HDMI].
Again, incorrect. You do NOT need HDMI 1.3 to carry a standard DD or DTS bitstream. This can be done over normal digital coax/optical, or I believe over HDMI 1.1 again. HDMI 1.3 is only required to carry a DTS-HD or Dolby TrueHD bitstream.

If Sony want the most people possible to be able to enjoy Blu-ray movies on the PS3, they will provide a digital out that is compatible with existing equipment as the number of people with even HDMI 1.1 compatible receivers is very small, and HDMI 1.3 isn't even ratified yet.

It is confusing.
It certainly is.....:)

EDIT: If you go here (http://www.ps3land.com/ps3specs.php) you will find specs for the PS3, and there's a few give away clues. It has HDMI (2 of), an optical digital out, so you will be able to get DD or DTS to your existing setup, and perhaps most interestingly something called an 'Analog AV Multi Out' which I can only guess means a breakout cable to provide a number of analog connections although how many and what type is not quoted.

So, you are highly unlikely to need HDMI 1.3 for PS3. Given that it was originally due for Japanese launch about now-ish, and that the reason for the delay is quoted as being Blu-ray DRM/Copy protection issues, it can't have HDMI 1.3 as it doesn't exist yet. Also, fitting it now for a November release would be very risky so I'd be very surprised if PS3 had HDMI 1.3 at all.

[shaithis]

This all makes me glad I invested in some mark grant cables a while ago for DVD-Audio :grin:

Quite surprised to hear that DTS HD won't be avilable over optical.

[Dutch]

Quite surprised to hear that DTS HD won't be avilable over optical.

The bandwidth is too high for DTS HD - only the "DTS core" will pass via optical or coaxial.

Steve

[Angry the Clown]

Sorry, I can't agree with that. There is no way Sony will not decode onboard with the PS3. If they do that then most of the new stuff on the Blu-ray discs will be unplayable. You CANNOT use interactive features over HDMI 1.3, so bringing out PS3 requiring an HDMI 1.3 link to play movies would be suicide as NO-ONE would have a decoder capable of doing the job.

The PS3 has to be able to decode internally or else it will be useless with Blu-ray movies. So, it will either have to output over HDMI 1.1 or, provide a standard coax or optical digital out and downmix to standard DD or DTS streams.

Ian, this is bizarre. We seem to actually be making the exact same points here but for some reason the way I was trying to explain it is not registering with you. The PS3, like the other Bu Ray players out this year, will deal with the mandatory codecs the hardware must offer which are: Dolby Digital, DTS and PCM. It’ll naturally do those just fine via the means you specify (coax, optical...etc), but Wilt is specifically asking how he might be able to enjoy True HD and DTS HD via the PS3.


Again, incorrect. You do NOT need HDMI 1.3 to carry a standard DD or DTS bitstream. This can be done over normal digital coax/optical, or I believe over HDMI 1.1 again. HDMI 1.3 is only required to carry a DTS-HD or Dolby TrueHD bitstream.

What I said was not incorrect. You are actually agreeing with what I was tyring to say, but have assumed that I was saying something else indicating that DD and DTS would be restricted. We’re not talking about standard lossy DD and DTS- or at least I wasn't. Of course it’ll output lossy DD and DTS as standard, but the LOSSLESS codecs like Dolby True HD and DTS HD are going to be restricted to HDMI 1.3 or multi-channel analogue outputs, and since the PS3 has no multi-channel analogue outputs, you’ll be left with the HDMI option, but again, because the PS3 isn't looking as if it will be able to internally decode True HD and DTS HD, the decoding will need to be done on the receiving end. There's no mandate for Blu Ray hardware to decode DD+, True HD or DTS HD (whereas HD DVD must do DD+, standard DTS, PCM and 2 channel True HD at the very least).

Now if Wilt, in post 12, amended his original question about the new codecs to asking about playing standard Dolby and DTS from a Blu Ray disc on a PS3 then I deeply apologise to potentially confusing the situation in that respect.

Again, incorrect. You do NOT need HDMI 1.3 to carry a standard DD or DTS bitstream. This can be done over normal digital coax/optical, or I believe over HDMI 1.1 again. HDMI 1.3 is only required to carry a DTS-HD or Dolby TrueHD bitstream.

Again - that’s precisely what I was saying though, Ian! I never said HDMI 1.3 was needed to carry the lossy steams we're used to with DVD (nor was I suggesting it would be required to extract the lossy stream imbedded into a True HD or DTS HD track). None of my responses were written in regards to how anything but the new lossless codecs might be delivered.

All this discussion at least shows up both formats for the confusing mess they are.

[Sniper]

Guys: do you honestly believe that the weakest link in most ppls multichannel audio systems is the DD/DTS compression!? Maybe, just maybe, it's the case for ppl with systems running over $5000 or more!

There's no reason whatsoever to get so excited over these 'HD' audio formats. Especially there's no need for ppl to start upgrading their av amps! It's actually the worse time ever - you've got to wait a year as a minimum as there's too much going on right now!

[robo989]

Im hopping the new codecs will be clearer with better positional audio. To be honest with most 5.1 dvds I dont really hear the rear channelse being used enough

Couldn't agree more...

How about the movie studios getting off their fat asses and actually doing some high quality audio transfers, instead of going onto the next big thing, they won't use it properly...

Normal DTS can do pretty much anything with its data rate...

I'm sure this HD stuff will sound the dogs dangleys - relative to the current stuff...

Thats not saying much tho is it?

[Sniper]

How about the movie studios getting off their fat asses and actually doing some high quality audio transfers, instead of going onto the next big thing, they won't use it properly...

on that I'de have to agree - but the move to 'HD' sound won't mean the transfers will improve - now will it??

[Angry the Clown]

Guys: do you honestly believe that the weakest link in most ppls multichannel audio systems is the DD/DTS compression!? Maybe, just maybe, it's the case for ppl with systems running over $5000 or more!


Well hey, I'm running Meridian components in my system and certainly am not anxiously lusting to get lossless audio running asap. If all Blu Ray and HD DVD movie releases were going to sport a lossless track (they won't), I think people might have reason to be more inclined to think about how they can upgrade. This isn't to say discs that do feature PCM presentations won't sound excellent, but it's also not to say that existing Dolby and DTS presentations suddenly become ancient and dated by comparison - and of course on Blu Ray and HD DVD things can at least return to the full bitrate presentation for DTS which is likely to appeal to more people right now than True HD and DTS HD will because the new codecs are just confusing people.

[welwynnick]

Guys: do you honestly believe that the weakest link in most ppls multichannel audio systems is the DD/DTS compression!? Yeah, I do actually! There are precious few DTS soundtracks out there, and DD audio quality is far behind CD, let alone SACD or DVD-A, which is where we should be aiming. Apart from the number of channels, and signal to noise ratio, I don't think DD has moved on much from VHS analogue audio.

The new formats will have so much more space available, I believe it would be a tragic waste not to take advantage and allow more space to the soundtracks. And I don't think you need a megabucks system to spot the difference.

Loss-less compression, allegedly to studio master standard, is just too tempting to ignore, and if one of the new disc formats does eventually succeed, TrueHD or DTS-HD may be the standard to finally kill off both DVD-A and SACD for good, and bring in one, high definition, high-quality, multi-channel audio standard for everything.

Hopefully in my lifetime, Nick

[robo989]

There's some DTS superbit DVDs that sound superb...

I'll be willing to bet that the "new" HD audio, will prolly be worse than this generally with a smaller number sounding better

[Sniper]

Yeah, I do actually! There are precious few DTS soundtracks out there, and DD audio quality is far behind CD, let alone SACD or DVD-A, which is where we should be aiming. Apart from the number of channels, and signal to noise ratio, I don't think DD has moved on much from VHS analogue audio.

Granted: there are some really bad DD transfers running around - but to say that we've not moved on much from VHS analogue audio is taking it a 'tad' too far.

I've heard some impressive audio on some expensive equipment, playing this VHS sound you're talking about, & it was amazing stuff!

What I meant before was that there's way more stuff ppl need to upgrade in their system before the lossy DD/DTS streams start to be the weakest link!

[jackal]

What I hope is that they will concentrate on making dialogue clearer when mixing in the new formats. There are too many tracks at the moment where dialogue is swamped.

[robo989]

Guys: do you honestly believe that the weakest link in most ppls multichannel audio systems is the DD/DTS compression!?

Yes...

As long as you've got at least a 32inch CRT and a reasonable £200+ receiver\amp and some reasonable speakers - pretty much anything thats floorstanding...

My kit is abit better than that, but at that base level - DD audio is the most noticable problem or "weakest link"...

Video quality is getting alot better these days on many dvds...granted releases of old tv shows and cartoons especially look like crap...

But the biggest problem seems to be audio, all the new dvds these days come bundled with pointless extras and have low bitrate DD tracks like 384k sometimes even in the 200's.

DVDs rarely (hardly ever) use all the space available, they could easily do a 640k DD track instead of the rubbish they put out, if they're gonna bother with all the crappy extras they could take some time on the transfer you would think of audio.

There's no excuse whatsoever for having people sound like their talking through a heavy metal guitar...

The technology already exists for "HD" audio, its just not used...for no apparent reason?

Take mp3, with a decent encoder like LAME, and using EAC for ripping your cds you CAN get nigh on CD quality at 192k...

Check out all the mp3s on the net (naughty naughty) but anyway, they all sound crap, because they ain't been encoded properly...same as DVD soundtracks

Over simplified I know, but its pretty much like that, new HD audio won't mean much, same goes for HD video, insofar as it won't use its potential, you can be sure of getting more half full discs.

[Ian_S]

... The PS3, like the other Bu Ray players out this year, will deal with the mandatory codecs the hardware must offer which are: Dolby Digital, DTS and PCM. It’ll naturally do those just fine via the means you specify (coax, optical...etc), but Wilt is specifically asking how he might be able to enjoy True HD and DTS HD via the PS3.
We're not saying the same things... :) I think you are assuming that BR or HD-DVD's will have separate standard DD and DTS tracks when there is a DTS-HD or TrueHD track. This goes against all the info available elsewhere. What I'm saying is that internally the PS3 will have to be able to decode DTS-HD and or TrueHD to provide the higher bitrate DD or (probably not higher bitrate) DTS tracks, and intermix the interactive features. Therefore, via the analogue breakout cable, or via HDMI 1.1, I'm saying that you will be able to enjoy the higher resolution formats. HDMI 1.3 simply doesn't exist yet. This downsampling and mixing process for interactive is the main reason why the new players need such huge processing power as they're having to do so much on the fly. The new formats simply don't work like current DVD's where you have umpteen different audio tracks for main feature, commentary by x different people etc... It's all mixed in as required by the player, hence the important shift from decoding via external processors to decoding within the players. Hence the fact that HDMI 1.3 or greater aren't available won't stop people from enjoying the potentially better audio.

Now if Wilt, in post 12, amended his original question about the new codecs to asking about playing standard Dolby and DTS from a Blu Ray disc on a PS3 then I deeply apologise to potentially confusing the situation in that respect.

That was exactly what he was asking hence my reply... :) The PS3 does apparently have some kind of multi-analogue out connector... it's not clear exactly what analogue outs are provided yet though, so you never know.

All this discussion at least shows up both formats for the confusing mess they are.
It's getting ridiculous. :god: Anyone who thinks this will kill DVD-A or SACD is 'avin a laugh. In a single stroke they've doubled the number of formats (DTS-HD and TrueHD) and also doubled the number of physical discs and so far neither camp have given any details on how they might support audio only discs... If anything the chances of decent high resolution multi-channel or stereo music are getting further away as the possible combinations are still growing... When will they get it, we want ONE BLEEDING FORMAT for audio AND one for video...

In the meantime I guess they'll continue to try and consign proper CD's to the dustbin by promoting DualDud's with their useless DD bitrates.... :mad:

[Angry the Clown]

I think you are assuming that BR or HD-DVD's will have separate standard DD and DTS tracks when there is a DTS-HD or TrueHD track.

No I’ve certainly confused you along the way in my words. I’m not assuming that at all. It wouldn’t make any sense. What would be the point when even players that might not be able to decode the full lossless multi-channel stream can still extract the legacy track from the True HD and DTS HD one and spit it out via the typical means of connection we’re used to? They certainly don’t need to add dedicated lossy tracks when DTS HD and True HD are present.

We really were saying the same thing because everything you wrote I found myself sitting and nodding in agreement with, it’s simply that I dared not even go into trying to explain the downmixing abilities that DTS HD, True HD (and DD+ which does it too) offer due to fears of making an already confusing state of affairs needlessly more complicated. I just had to tackle Wilt’s initial question of how he might be able to enjoy True HD and DTS HD via the PS3, writing only in respect of what is required to decode and playback the full lossless stream.

That was exactly what he was asking hence my reply... :) The PS3 does apparently have some kind of multi-analogue out connector... it's not clear exactly what analogue outs are provided yet though, so you never know.

Firstly then of course I apologise to Wilt for potentially confusing the situation in regards to how one might merely go about listening to the lossy Dolby and DTS tracks on Blu Ray that we’re already used to. The poor fellow’s head must have exploded in reading us going back and forth, saying this, that and the other, yet essentially agreeing on everything.

As for the PS3, that’s interesting on the analogue option. That’ll be good for Sony’s few titles with the straight uncompressed PCM track on in which case. Again though, I’d be shocked if the PS3 can decode the full multi-channel lossless streams from DTS HD and True HD. It can eclipse stand alone dedicated $1000+ players on price, but if it does so on features as well it would be baffling. It does frustrate me full support for the new audio codecs is not mandatory in Blu Ray. Early adopters might only realise this when they’ve already spent over $1000 on first gen hardware out this year.


It's getting ridiculous. Anyone who thinks this will kill DVD-A or SACD is 'avin a laugh. In a single stroke they've doubled the number of formats (DTS-HD and TrueHD) and also doubled the number of physical discs and so far neither camp have given any details on how they might support audio only discs... If anything the chances of decent high resolution multi-channel or stereo music are getting further away as the possible combinations are still growing... When will they get it, we want ONE BLEEDING FORMAT for audio AND one for video...

In the meantime I guess they'll continue to try and consign proper CD's to the dustbin by promoting DualDud's with their useless DD bitrates....

It’s too much. None of them can agree on one thing, so everybody loses. God forbid anyone can just sit back and relax fully content with their purchase.

[Sniper]

As long as you've got at least a 32inch CRT and a reasonable £200+ receiver\amp and some reasonable speakers - pretty much anything thats floorstanding...


AS IF ! Not a chance... the quality of any £200 will not demostrate the difference between DTS & DTS-HD.


Take mp3, with a decent encoder like LAME, and using EAC for ripping your cds you CAN get nigh on CD quality at 192k...


You'll get close - close enogh for a £200 amp - not that close for a £2000 one!

[thanley]

In response to the original post, I am sure I read that next gen HD players will have on board decoders and will output to any amp/reciever that has analouge 7.1 inputs. ala SACD..

[welwynnick]

If anything the chances of decent high resolution multi-channel or stereo music are getting further away as the possible combinations are still growing... When will they get it, we want ONE BLEEDING FORMAT for audio AND one for video... Absolutely.

But one thing we can be pretty sure of is that the audio standard won't be SACD or DVD-A!

Nick

[ianh64]

Absolutely.

But one thing we can be pretty sure of is that the audio standard won't be SACD or DVD-A!

Nick
Well Dolby True HD is basically MLP as used on DVD-A so whilst the format of the disc may be different, the data is near identical or possibly even identical. As far as I am aware, the only difference between MLP and True HD is that True HD adds a few extra bits of meta data for film dialogue use much in the same way that DD contains dialogue hints now.

[sbowler]

I am perfectly happy with the sound side of my setup, and dont think the difference from DD or DTS to HD standards sounds wise will be that noticeable. I certainly wont be rushing out for a new receiver.:eek:

[AVnut70]

I am perfectly happy with the sound side of my setup, and dont think the difference from DD or DTS to HD standards sounds wise will be that noticeable. I certainly wont be rushing out for a new receiver.:eek:

I was happy with the sound of mine till I set up my new amp last week and used Return of the King to test it out. Is it just me or is the dialogue channel vey compressed and quiet compared to the rest of the mix?? I can't wait for DD True HD or DTS HD as am certain it will bring a massive improvement.

[robo989]

I am perfectly happy with the sound side of my setup, and dont think the difference from DD or DTS to HD standards sounds wise will be that noticeable.

How can you say that? You don't know :confused: ?

[Mr_Sukebe]

Wow, am I glad I opted out of multi-channel a year ago.
HD whatever in stereo will probably sound glorious and I don't give a stuff about redundancy of an AV amp that I don't own.

[robo989]

Wow, am I glad I opted out of multi-channel a year ago.
HD whatever in stereo will probably sound glorious and I don't give a stuff about redundancy of an AV amp that I don't own.

Why do you say that?

[kumamoto]

Guys: do you honestly believe that the weakest link in most ppls multichannel audio systems is the DD/DTS compression!? Maybe, just maybe, it's the case for ppl with systems running over $5000 or more!

There's no reason whatsoever to get so excited over these 'HD' audio formats. Especially there's no need for ppl to start upgrading their av amps! It's actually the worse time ever - you've got to wait a year as a minimum as there's too much going on right now!


I concur. I am not upgrading my AV amp until 2008 earliest!

[ykhan16]

Its far to early to start talking about upgrading amp's. DTS sounds fantastic and with maxed out bitrate (from downconversion of DTS HD) it will sound even better. No question HD audio will be an improvement but the actual audible jump in quality isnt going to be huge- and even that will be dependant on how good a setup you've got.:rolleyes:

[Malone]

I dont think Wilt was after such an in depth analysis

I think the simple answer is "Wait till release"

Until then everyone is speculating, all machines change spec pretty much right up to release so until then be patient.:)

Matt

[ykhan16]

I dont think Wilt was after such an in depth analysis

I think the simple answer is "Wait till release"

Until then everyone is speculating, all machines change spec pretty much right up to release so until then be patient.:)

Matt

:suicide: <----Wilt lol

[Malone]

:laugh: :suicide: <----Wilt lol

[wingnut1]

Without starting a new debate and speaking out of turn, what about the transfer of these new formats via i link/firewire. I may be wrong (and i have been in the past!) but doesn't firewire have a higher bitstream transfer for audio and therefore be able to cope better with these formats using existing equipment!

[Barrington]

A person claimed that it was possible to get for example, Dolby TrueHD sound with HDMI 1.1, which is actually entirely false and impossible.

The only thing, which HDMI 1.1 has the ability to do is play DVD-Audio.

NB!!! HDMI 1.3 is required for HD sound, for example Dolby TrueHD sound!:uk:

For proof - See HDMI's official website: http://hdmi.org/about/faq.asp

[Barrington]

The way I see it is that HD appears to be a worldwide con it appears:

1) HDMI 1.3 should have been HDMI 1.0 version.
2) HDCP compatible problems should have been solved and HD products
recalled and problems solved immediately.
3) AACS should be properly tested and if there are any, 'bugs' (problems)
solved immediately.

NB!!! Somebody is probably making millions whilst consumers are probably
being ripped off!

http://hdmi.org/about/faq.asp

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/2006/09/hdmi_part_10_-.php

How is it possible that probably PSP3 is being fitted with HDMI 1.3 before any other product?

It doesn't appear to be any urgency in solving HDCP problem in all existing HD products.

NB!!! I donot think that any further licence payments should be made until all
the present problems have been solved, which solve the problems faster!

[Barrington]

Definitely, Firewire 800 should provide a much faster transfer rate and picture quality than for example analog.

The problem is that the establishment is probably more concerned with maximising their profits - they have inserted two encryption programs:
1) HDCP (HDMI) and
2) AACS (Video (picture) and audio (sound) content)

At the moment for example, people can see high definition (HD) quality video using component sockets but whenever the establishment decides to prevent it they will switch on the HDCP encryption program (to check whether there is either an HDMI or DVI link being used), which will reduce the quality to probably DVD or standard definition standard.

High Definition quality (Video (picture) and audio (sound)) content can only be guaranteed using especially HDMI sockets, especially in the long term.

It is claimed that it is possible to get HD picture using DVI, but I don't think anybody has stated how does a person get HD sound with DVI for example Dolby TrueHD, which includes; editors, retailers and manufacturers without wasting money!

[ianh64]

A person claimed that it was possible to get for example, Dolby TrueHD sound with HDMI 1.1, which is actually entirely false and impossible.

The only thing, which HDMI 1.1 has the ability to do is play DVD-Audio.

NB!!! HDMI 1.3 is required for HD sound, for example Dolby TrueHD sound!:uk:

For proof - See HDMI's official website: http://hdmi.org/about/faq.asp
Absolutely wrong. Whilst HDMI 1.3 is required to carry native TrueHD, the necessity for this is minimal. HDMI 1.1 will carry uncompressed multi channel PCM - ie HD sound. Dolby designed True HD to be decoded in the player and then mixed with other interactive bits - commentry etc. The whole Dolby philosophy works around this. Once decoded in the player, it is simply passed to the amp via multi channel analogue or HDMI 1.1 via uncompressed PCM.

http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/DPlus_TrueHD_whitepaper.pdf

HDMI 1.3 is not required for HD sound. HDMI 1.1 is quite sufficient. The only necessity for HDMI 1.3 is if your player does not decode the Dolby True HD format.

[Nic Rhodes]

A person claimed that it was possible to get for example, Dolby TrueHD sound with HDMI 1.1, which is actually entirely false and impossible.


New codecs, how they are decoded and the way they are transported are all different things.

HD DVD players are designed to decode within the player and output a full PCM signal. This is exactly what happens with HDMI 1.1 and therefore HDMI does not need any 'more help' on the audio side with 'higher numbers', HDMI 1.1 is fine and fit for purpose and available now. In fact the audio processing in the current HD DVD players is much more than most AV processors (24x the power of my Tag equipment). It is like having the next generation receiver decoding in the player.

BD could do something similar (and some might do soon) but they are trying to get receiver manufacturers to decode the new codec and in their case if the player does not decode the audio codec, then they will have to output the codec for decoding to some future receiver. This is because the audio codecs are more often optional on the BD and mandatory on the BD player. It does mean that if a player does not decode the audio format then new supporting electronics is needed, probably one of the reasons why the current HD DVD have been so well received. No new kit is necessary. HDMI is then needed to transfer the undecoded audio stream to external kit for decoding. Unfortunately non currently exists.

Many people here are greatly enjoying thier TrueHD and have been for months on thier HDMI 1.1 interfaces.

Edit: same as Ian has said, I knew I shouldn't have stopped for breakfast!

[Barrington]

I am answering both messages:-
1) Ianh64 and
2) Nic Rhodes

The prinicpal problem appears to be the definition of high definition (HD) sound

My definition of HD sound is the same as the official definition of not only the official; Dolby but HDMI's organisations says it is.

Using table: 1 page 9/12 on the website provided by Ian64, should simplify the problem, to quote,

'...HDMI 1.1: Two-, six-, eight-channel PCM, dolby Digital
HDMI 1.3 (future): Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD...'

http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech...whitepaper.pdf

They agree with me that PCM is not treated as HD.

I am not certain of what exactly what PCM means but it appears to be the equvalent to digital sound: Nicam Stereo, 5.1, 6.1 and 7.1.
I probably purchased my Denon 2802 years ago and I am certain that PCM was not defined as being HD sound.

I am certain the the official HDMI's organisation nor Dolby doesnot define PCM as being HD.

To quote HDMI's website below,
'... General HDMI™ Questions ...'
'...Q: What is HDMI?...'

Quote the second paragraph,
1) '... HDMI supports standard ...',
2)' ... It transmits all ATSC HDTV standards and supports 8-channel, 192kHz,
uncompressed digital audio and all currently-available compressed
formats (such as Dolby Digital and DTS),...'
3) '... HDMI 1.3 adds additional support for new lossless digital audio formats
Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD with bandwidth to spare to accommodate
future enhancements and requirements...'

Further proof (read):

'...HDMI Specifications...'
'...Q. What functionality was added to each specification? ...

NB! read especially the sections, which relate to not only HDMI 1.1
but HDMI 1.3

NB! Read, 'What’s new in the HDMI 1.3 Specification?'.




http://hdmi.org/about/faq.asp#q1_3


This is probably what Ian64 mean to quote, 'Whilst HDMI 1.3 is required to carry native TrueHD, the necessity for this is minimal.'


A white paper, probably written before 2005, is probably useless but it probably ironically proves my point, which I have dealt with see table: 1above.

Another quote from Ian64,
'...HDMI 1.3 is not required for HD sound. HDMI 1.1 is quite sufficient. The only necessity for HDMI 1.3 is if your player does not decode the Dolby True HD format...'.

It appears that the only method of decoding Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD is using HDMI 1.3 - PCM is not recognised by either HDMI official organisation or Dolby.

Does this mean that if I use my Denon 2802 with 5.1 and 6.1, qnd also with a preamp can create 7.1 (besides other things), that I can create almost HD sound using optical port, which would save money in the future in having to purchase an AVR (Audio video receiver) with HDMI ports?

Nic Rhodes:
I think that Nic is saying that HD-DVD players uses a different method from the BD (BLU-RAY) players but I think that is incorrect!

They both have to use HDMI 1.3 to obtain; Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD based on what at least two official organisations say and the most important is the official HDMI, whose website I have given above.

I probably treat; 5.1, 6.1 and 7.1 as being obsolete, because probably have been available since about 1998 and Dolby says that Dolby TrueHD and Dolby Digital Plus are superior.

I apologise for not checking what the organisation who creates DTS-HD says but I doubt if it would be any different.

HD-DVD and BLU-RAY should both have HDMI but I would advise before buying because manufacturers can't be trusted not to mislead.

When I first verified that HD sound existed, I think of it has probably instead of wasting hundreds but preferably thousands of pounds, HD sound is excellent value for money and the quality of sound arguably should be much better than 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1!

[robo989]

PCM doesn't even mean HD, it never did, its an audio format. It can be HD, it can be anything...its just uncompressed digital audio in its most raw form (well not its most raw but most raw in a formatted fashion).

PCM can be any frequency range.

I think your a bit confused.

Dolby Digital Plus isn't a HD format as such, its just Dolby Digital encoded at the highest bit rate that dolby digital spec goes to, which is about 640k, the Xbox1 and the Xbox 360 both output "Dolby Digital Plus", but its not really a "plus" at all, thats just marketing speak.

Your not really making much sense in what you say and a lot is just assumptions that are incorrect.

no offense but your gonna confuse the bloke.

NB!!! HDMI 1.3 is required for HD sound, for example Dolby TrueHD sound!

Thats just total and complete rubbish,

NB, Don't give info on subjects your not too sure about, and don't put it in such assertive language if your not sure.

For Dolby TrueHD, you need either a receiver with a HDMI 1.3 input and the player must have one also, OR a player with 6 analogue audio outputs, and that then connects to the 6 analogue inputs on your receiver - most receivers these days have them.

The player should then send the decoded audio and the receiver just pumps out the sound.

This is pretty much the only way to get TrueHD at the moment, I'm not sure if there are any receivers that can decode TrueHD over HDMI 1.3 at the mo, think they're coming next year.

[robo989]

I dunno, but somebody needs to spend a good 20 mins quoting barrington and correcting him where needed as people who don't know that much are going to read what he's typed and get totally the wrong idea about a lot of stuff...

Better picture quality over firewire?...

what :confused:

(sorry its late, im being a rude grumpy git its just....well have a read;))

[Ian_S]

Barrington,

You're getting caught up in the HDMI 1.3 and HD marketing machine. HD sound cannot get any higher definition than the original master for that film. In 99.9% of all films, the soundtrack master is stored as uncompressed PCM. This is the digital standard that the audio recording industry has used for quite some time now, and continues to use.

Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio both do one thing, compress PCM audio to take up less space on disc and spit it out the other side as an exact copy of the PCM track originally encoded. So, PCM is very high definition and is infact what TrueHD and DTS-HD ultimately carry.

There are three ways to decode new HD compressed tracks.
Decode the DD/DTS encoded bitstream to PCM and send it though an in-player DAC and output from the player to an amplifier as an analogue signal through phono outs.
Decode the DD/DTS encoded bitstream in the player into PCM and send the PCM stream to another device to send through a DAC to convert to analogue.
Send the DD/DTS encoded bitstream direct from the player to another device where it is decoded into PCM and then sent through a DAC to turn the PCM signal into an analogue one.
With options 1 & 2, the player requires the TrueHD or DTS-HD decoding capability. Once the player has decoded that signal into PCM, it then has the option to mix in additional PCM sounds such as interactive features, menu noises etc. before sending the 'mixed' PCM signal on to either an in player DAC or another device. Clearly to send that PCM signal to an onboard DAC, HDMI is not required.

To send high resolution multi-channel PCM to another device HDMI is required. From HDMI 1.1 and later, up to 8 channels of 24 bit, 192KHz PCM sound can be transmitted with HD video. That is potentially very high definition sound considering most films are a maximum 24 bit, 48KHz and that most home transfers are infact 16bit, 48KHz, which includes I believe ALL TrueHD film tracks released so far. Apart from being able to transmit multi-channel, high resolution PCM (which SPDIF or Toslink cannot), HDMI also uses HDCP to do it securely. This is why we may not see iLink etc used. Such interfaces may not gain AACS approval so easily given their computer based roots.

To send the unencoded DD/DTS HD streams from player to amplifier (option 3), HDMI 1.3 IS required. This is simply because neither SPDIF or Toslink have the required bandwidth for these formats even when still compressed, and again don't meet AACS security either. However, IF you take this route, clearly the player cannot mix interactive sounds into to overall sound, so pop-up features, button presses etc. will be strangely silent. Also, it is not yet known (still no HDMI 1.3 receivers and only one player so far, PS3) whether studios will allow these RAW bitstreams to pass out of the player anyway.

So, if you ignore jitter, you can enjoy very high resolution audio today using an amplifier that supports multi-channel PCM audio over HDMI 1.1 or higher.

Remember high definition sound means high bitrate, bit depth, and sampling frequency, not the method used to transport said data. DTS-HD and TrueHD are just containers capable of transporting high defintion sound, they don't make it high definition to start with.

[Ian_S]

BD could do something similar (and some might do soon) but they are trying to get receiver manufacturers to decode the new codec and in their case if the player does not decode the audio codec, then they will have to output the codec for decoding to some future receiver. This is because the audio codecs are more often optional on the BD and mandatory on the BD player. It does mean that if a player does not decode the audio format then new supporting electronics is needed, probably one of the reasons why the current HD DVD have been so well received. No new kit is necessary. HDMI is then needed to transfer the undecoded audio stream to external kit for decoding. Unfortunately non currently existsI'm not so sure on this Nic...

If you press the pop-up menu button on a BD player whilst the film is playing, you should get sounds with it when you press options etc. It can only be doing this if it is mixing sounds in player similiar to the Toshiba approach. :confused:

I think people are just assuming that because so far none of the players support any of the advanced codecs that that is what the BDA want you to do, largely because it's Sony, who are clearly the Devil's corporate presence on earth. However, if that were their plan then they should be sacked because not one of the 1st Gen standalone players supports HDMI 1.3 either, so unless you get a firmware upgrade adding in player decoding (Panasonic) then you'll simply never get to hear a TrueHD/Master Audio track ever on those players regardless of the amplifier you have...

So I'm still of the view that HDMI 1.3 for audio will be a red-herring. However I'm fast coming to the view that HDMI 1.3 for video will be a necessity, but that's another matter. ;)

[Nic Rhodes]

Barrington

You do seemed mixed up. I think the others have corrected you as you are in a bit of a muddle here but what I am others have written is correct. PCM is the highest quality audio you can get in digital form. It is how films are recorded! Everything else is derived from there are quality yherefore suffers on a 'sliding scale'.

Ian

I think you have just missed my point. If you have audio codecs on board then HDMI 1.1 is all you need in BD. If you don't then the only way to possibly access them in BD is via HDM 1.3 raw out. No more complicated than that. HD DVD just tries to do it all in the player which is my prefered option for all player tbh.

[Southernguy]

Guys, i'm not very technologically minded but i have a YAMAHA DSP-AX757SE amp (bought 12 months ago) connected to my xbox via optical cable.

My xbox hd-dvd drive is on it's way and i'm wondering if i'll be able to take advantage of the improved sound quality?

Your help (as always) would be much appreciated.

[The WB]

Best bet is to go to the dolby digital site where they have section ' Dolby Has You Covered'.It explains:
The Good news is that wether you own a legacy audio/video system equipped with Dolby Digital, or a more current a/v reciever equipped with an HDMI connection or external line-level multichannel inputs,a compatible,high quality playback path is assured.Dolby has you covered.

it also goes into explaining it how it all works!

[Southernguy]

Thanks WB, i've just read it but i'm more confused than ever!!

Help!!!!!

[Bald Monkey]

AFAIK, and I'm certainly no expert...

The HD-DVD addon and Xbox, will send DD5.1 through the optical link, or if you select the HD format on the disc, it will send this format, downgraded by the Xbox into DD5.1, however some have reported that this does sound slightly better than the normal DD5.1 .

For true HD audio, you would need the (in simple terms) 6 ch ouputs from the player, which the Xbox doesn't have at the mo..

So it should be slightly better than DD5.1 on SD DVD's but no you will not get true HD sound. :)
(unlike the toshiba stand alone HD-DVD players, which have bulilt in decoding and 6ch outputs) Perhaps a software upgrade and some kind of 6ch output lead can and will be developed for the Xbox 360 in the future, perhaps with the HDMI lead??? Who knows??


I think :god: :grin:

[Southernguy]

Ahhh ok, thank you.

[Pecker]

As many people have perfectly good 7.1 channel amps with 7.1 analogue inputs (a feature included to 'future proof' the amps in question), how about releasing a DD/dts sound processor with 7.1 outputs, and which deals with all these different sound standards?

If a HD-DVD player costs £600, then surely the sound side of it will only cost £150-£200 or so.

This would stop (for exanple) me having to replace my Denon 3803 which cost me the best part of a grand - much of which is for the amplification side of things.

Given a choice between spending c.£1,000 on a new amp or £200 on a new sound processor to plug into my old amp, there's no contest.

BTW, I have another gripe, what the hell is '7.2'?

For years we've been told subwoofer bass is non-directional (true).

For years we've been told that different rooms call for different subwoofer placement (also true).

Where do the 2 subs go?

Left & right?

Front and back?

.2 systems must be the biggest red herring in home cinema.

Steve W

[The WB]

My amp can do 7.3 left,right and lfe.At the moment i've just got it as 7.2.

[The WB]

Thanks WB, i've just read it but i'm more confused than ever!!

Help!!!!!
Basically what it means you don't need to update your amp as long as you have analouge inputs or the hdmi connection.You get yourself a good hd player or blu-ray(Theres only a couple at the moment)that has a built in decoder( I was also told it doesn't need a built in decoder,but it's gets very technical).People who have spent many $$ on amps at least will know they don't have to simply go and change,just use what they have.I was also told after hdmi 1.3 the next one will be 2.0(when will it stop).

[Chewbacca]

For years we've been told subwoofer bass is non-directional (true).

For years we've been told that different rooms call for different subwoofer placement (also true).

Where do the 2 subs go?

Left & right?

Front and back?

.2 systems must be the biggest red herring in home cinema.

Steve W[/QUOTE]

I have a Pioneer amp which is THX ultra 2 spec and I have 2 Jamo THX ultra spec subs in our front room just behind the sofa and to be honest its been the best 2 k I have ever spent.

I think the ultra 2 spec stipulates that You should have 2 subs in Your system.

[Wilt]

:eek: Wow! didn't know this speculation was ongoing.

Anway as i understand it if i had a PS3 now, i wouldn't be able to enjoy HD sound as the PS3 has no analouge outputs and there are no HDMI 1.3 amps available.

Still wilting.:)

[pwood]

Hopefully in my lifetime, Nick[/QUOTE]

How true Nick.:rotfl:

I was considering the cheaper Tosh but got put off due to the lack of analogue outputs and dont see the point in paying £600 on the top model when after reading this forum its not clear it will be able to play the all the new formats when/if the studios put them on.

Too average joe public the increase in sound quality will be hard to tell on the majority of their all in one surround systems and few if any will have 5.1 analogue inputs.

I think in the future new av amps may have to adopt an HD ready type of signage to avoid confusion.

[richard plumb]

:eek: Wow! didn't know this speculation was ongoing.

Anway as i understand it if i had a PS3 now, i wouldn't ba able to enjoy HD sound as the PS3 has no analouge outputs and there are no HDMI 1.3 amps available.

Still wilting.:)

PS3 will output LPCM so if you have an amp with HDMI 1.1 upwards that supports audio over HDMI you're all set. No need for HDMI 1.3

[Wilt]

I will be getting the Denon 3808 later this month. Just making one final check that this receiver is suitable to enjoy DTS HD Master Audio and Dolby Digital True HD from my PS3.

Also if i was to get a HD DVD player later, which models currently output all HD sound formats.

Thanks

[chic]

I will be getting the Denon 3808 later this month. Just making one final check that this receiver is suitable to enjoy DTS HD Master Audio and Dolby Digital True HD from my PS3.

Also if i was to get a HD DVD player later, which models currently output all HD sound formats.

Thanks

dolby true hd will work fine, however the ps3 cant decode dtsma or send it as bitstream over hdmi 1.3 for an amp to decode if it has the dtsma decoder onboard. The best you will get is dtd core at 1.5mb which still sounds very good. There are rumours of an update for the ps3 which will either allow it to decode dtsma or sen the audio as bitstream over hdmi.

[Wilt]

Ok, are there any players out there that does DTS Master Audio over bitstream, HD DVD or Blue Ray? I heard about the PS3 not being able to do DTS MA around it's launch time but will do with an update. Not sure wether any of the updates since launch have no included DTS MA so that's why i've asked.

[Dutch]

Ok, are there any players out there that does DTS Master Audio over bitstream, HD DVD or Blue Ray?

The Toshiba XE1 should be getting a firmware update soon to allow DTS-HD MA bitstream output.

Steve

[MrsSigns]

Hi all,

What about playing discs on Xbox 360 HD player ?

Would we still need an amp with HDMI 1.3 or could we use optical inputs for Dolby TrueHD sound ? :confused:

If we went down the route of purchasing a new surround sound system with dvd, could we connect the Xbox HD player through this via HDMI1.3 or optical for same sound as using an amp (above).

[chic]

Hi all,

What about playing discs on Xbox 360 HD player ?

Would we still need an amp with HDMI 1.3 or could we use optical inputs for Dolby TrueHD sound ? :confused:

If we went down the route of purchasing a new surround sound system with dvd, could we connect the Xbox HD player through this via HDMI1.3 or optical for same sound as using an amp (above).

with the 360 and the hddvd add on the best you will get is dts 1.5mb and 5.1 audio is only available over the optical output. You cant get dolby true hd over optical, there is a setting on the 360 when playing a hddvd movie to change the sound output to dts, by doing this you will get 1.5mb dts audio which sounds very good. If you select a dolby true hd track it will be down mixed to 5.1 dts at 1.5mb. If you want to listen to uncmpressed audio from hddvd you will need a stand alone hddvd player and an amp that accepts pcm over hdmi. HDMI 1.3 is not necessary to listen to dolby true hd. If your amp has 5.1 phono in you can get uncompressed audio through them if you you get and hddvd player with the 5.1 phone out jacks.

[MrsSigns]

Thank you, didn't realise that - so really we are better off upgrading our normal DVD player to a Dolby TrueHD HD player with 7.1 home theatre system ? Or HD DVD player and additional amp with HDMI1.3 inputs :confused: rather than trying to utilize the Xbox HD player (only outputting at 5.1) is that correct ?

Edit:
Just talking to Richer now - if I take a Toshiba HD XE1, a Sony STRDA1200 amp for example, (or an amp like this one http://www.soundfood.net/Audio/Video-News/Latest/Pioneer-VSA-AX11H--Dolby-True-HD--DTS-HD-amp-out-in-Japan.html) then I would have to make up my own speaker setup (only being 6.1 max) then it would give me the better HD sound.
Didn't realise that 7.1 surround sound speaker systems are still so new and Richer don't offer them yet.
Or shall we hang on until 7.1 speaker systems available, whenever that will be ?
Then again, what is this system http://www.microdirect.co.uk/ProductInfo.aspx?ProductID=5979&source=Kelkoo

[chic]

Thank you, didn't realise that - so really we are better off upgrading our normal DVD player to a Dolby TrueHD HD player with 7.1 home theatre system ? Or HD DVD player and additional amp with HDMI1.3 inputs :confused: rather than trying to utilize the Xbox HD player as this won't give us the best sound obtainable from the HD discs, is that correct ?

yes you are correct, the toshiba he-1 can be got for under £200 and new models are due soon, i would wait for them. For amps the onkyo 605 is a HDMI 1.3 amp and can be got for about £400. I have the toshiba he-1 and the sony 910 amp which cost £300 but is only hdmi 1.2 but as the player decode the hd audio and sends this over hdmi and the 910 can process audio over hdmi i can still listen to the full hd audio. Like i said hdmi 1.3 is not necessary for hd audio but if you want to future proof your self the onkyo 605 seems a good bet.

[MrsSigns]

Chic, please see my edited post above :) thanks

[chic]

Chic, please see my edited post above :) thanks

the sony 1200 is no good as it cant do audio over hdmi, the Pioneer VSA-AX11H would be a good choice or the onkyo 605, for speakers 6.1 would be fine even 5.1 would do as at the moment most if not all hd audio soundtracks are 5.1 only so for hd audio at the moment 7.1 is not required. I have a 6.1 system and the back speaker is only used for dvds adn for my hddvd and bluray its 5.1 only

[MrsSigns]

Thank you, you have been a good help :)

[sea surfer]

with the 360 and the hddvd add on the best you will get is dts 1.5mb and 5.1 audio is only available over the optical output. You cant get dolby true hd over optical, there is a setting on the 360 when playing a hddvd movie to change the sound output to dts, by doing this you will get 1.5mb dts audio which sounds very good. If you select a dolby true hd track it will be down mixed to 5.1 dts at 1.5mb. If you want to listen to uncmpressed audio from hddvd you will need a stand alone hddvd player and an amp that accepts pcm over hdmi. HDMI 1.3 is not necessary to listen to dolby true hd. If your amp has 5.1 phono in you can get uncompressed audio through them if you you get and hddvd player with the 5.1 phone out jacks.

Hi, looking for some help:lease:, just wondering if anyone has tried to get the full HD sound from there pc to there amp, I just wired up my pc to my amp using the analogue inputs on my amp, I have tried swithching from the analogue to SPDIF and changing from 5.1 to full HD soundtrack, and so far the 5.1 sounds better than the full HD track, the volume on the HD track sounds a bit subdued, I am running it through PowerDVD Ultra, and changing the settings in audio to headphone input, is there something I am doing wrong, or is it just not possible for my souncard to output true HD sound!

[chic]

Hi, looking for some help:lease:, just wondering if anyone has tried to get the full HD sound from there pc to there amp, I just wired up my pc to my amp using the analogue inputs on my amp, I have tried swithching from the analogue to SPDIF and changing from 5.1 to full HD soundtrack, and so far the 5.1 sounds better than the full HD track, the volume on the HD track sounds a bit subdued,I am running it through PowerDVD Ultra, and changing the settings in audio to headhone input, is ther something I am doing wrong, or is it just not possible for my souncard to output true HD sound!

not sure about that, but i have noticed hd audio tracks are alot quieter than dvd tracks, so i have to bump the voulume up a bit, the hd audio has more dynamic range and a more fuller soundtrack.

[sea surfer]

not sure about that, but i have noticed hd audio tracks are alot quieter than dvd tracks, so i have to bump the voulume up a bit, the hd audio has more dynamic range and a more fuller soundtrack.

Yes, that exactly what I have found, I am having to crank up the volume, so I think my amp must be recieving the signal, sounds from all the 5.1 chanels are there, just think the normal 5.1 sounds better, although my ears just may need time to do bit of adjusting, I will try some more movies and see what sounds the best.

[signs]

yes you are correct, the toshiba he-1 can be got for under £200 and new models are due soon, i would wait for them. For amps the onkyo 605 is a HDMI 1.3 amp and can be got for about £400. I have the toshiba he-1 and the sony 910 amp which cost £300 but is only hdmi 1.2 but as the player decode the hd audio and sends this over hdmi and the 910 can process audio over hdmi i can still listen to the full hd audio. Like i said hdmi 1.3 is not necessary for hd audio but if you want to future proof your self the onkyo 605 seems a good bet.

thanks Chic i've been looking at the Onkyo 605 this morning, seems i can pick it up for £384

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=blended&field-keywords=onkyo%20605&results-process=default&dispatch=search/ref=pd_sl_aw_tops-2_blended_208194420_2&results-process=default

[chic]

thanks Chic i've been looking at the Onkyo 605 this morning, seems i can pick it up for £384

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=blended&field-keywords=onkyo%20605&results-process=default&dispatch=search/ref=pd_sl_aw_tops-2_blended_208194420_2&results-process=default

thats a good price, there is a thread on the amp forum if you want to read up on the 605.

[MrsSigns]

thanks Chic i've been looking at the Onkyo 605 this morning, seems i can pick it up for £384

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=blended&field-keywords=onkyo%20605&results-process=default&dispatch=search/ref=pd_sl_aw_tops-2_blended_208194420_2&results-process=default

There is a package also, for the Onkyo 605 with Kef speakers for £898 (saving £190) plus £158 for 2 extra Kef pods making it 7.1 surround sound; http://www.creative-audio.co.uk/HCS_ONK605_KHT2005.htm

or
amp on its own from pureleygadgets.co.uk for £377.95 including £10 p&p !

[chic]

There is a package also, for the Onkyo 605 with Kef speakers for £898 (saving £190) plus £158 for 2 extra Kef pods making it 7.1 surround sound; http://www.creative-audio.co.uk/HCS_ONK605_KHT2005.htm

or
amp on its own from pureleygadgets.co.uk for £377.95 including £10 p&p !

seems like a good deal, dont know much about the kef pods, maybe have a look in the speaker forum to see how they rate.

[Wilt]

So i take there is no way of listening to DTS MA at the moment as there aren't any player which output over bitstream? We have to wait for firmware updates which have been in the pipeline for ages but never gets released. What's the hold up?

[audiojunkie]

Saw this in the processors forum,looks impressive.

http://www.onkyopro.com/model.cfm?m=PR-SC885P&p=i&class=Preamplifier

[Nic Rhodes]

Just what I have been waiting for :thumbsup:

[Pecker]

Saw this in the processors forum,looks impressive.

http://www.onkyopro.com/model.cfm?m=PR-SC885P&p=i&class=Preamplifier

Excellent!

But it looks expensive. Do we have a price?

Steve W

[Barrington]

Came across this thread by accident, which raises a number of questions to my original threads that were not answered.

In the past, I quoted not only the; official HDMI organisation, but Dolby (latter, probably created Dolby Digital Plus and TrueHD) stated that HDMI 1.3 is required to maximize high definition sound (lossless audio codecs).

In the past; Nic Rhodes, ian64, Ian S and Robo 989 stated that I was wrong when I quoted Dolby and HDMI organisation.

Dolby and HDMI organisations stated that HDMI 1.3 (digital input and then Digital output) creates a superior high definition sound then; HDMI 1.1, HDMI 1.2 or converting digital sound to analogue (six analogue inputs) and then converting the sound back to digital sound again, whose correct?

When I am ready, to upgrade to HD (high definition) instead of buying another AVR could I simply buy 6 analogue audio cables to get almost HD sound (value for money)?

If I was going to buy an HDMI 1.3 then at the moment I would probably be looking at the Onkyo and Denon HDMI 1.3 AVRs - if wireless connections actually arrives with excellent picture (link, HDMI 1.3 DVDs via AVR if necessary) and sound etcetera - probably would buy HDMI 1.3 in the future.

Perhaps, Ian S, ian 64, Nic Rhodes, & Robo989 or any body else could say how was it they knew more than not only HDMI, but especially Dolby who probably created Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby True-HD?

[dazza74]

Came across this thread by accident, which raises a number of questions to my original threads that were not answered.

In the past, I quoted not only the; official HDMI organisation, but Dolby (latter, probably created Dolby Digital Plus and TrueHD) stated that HDMI 1.3 is required to maximize high definition sound.

In the past; Nic Rhodes, ian64, Ian S and Robo 989 stated that I was wrong when I quoted Dolby and HDMI organisation.

Dolby and HDMI organisations stated that HDMI 1.3 (digital input and then Digital output) creates a superior high definition sound then; HDMI 1.1, HDMI 1.2 or converting digital sound to analogue (six analogue inputs) and then converting the sound back to digital sound again, whose correct?

When I am ready, to go HD (high definition) instead of buying another AVR could I simply buy 6 analogue audio cables to get almost HD sound?

If I was going to buy an HDMI 1.3 then at the moment I would be looking at the Onyko and Denon HDMI 1.3 AVRs.

Perhaps, Ian S, ian 64, Nic Rhodes, & Robo989 or any body else could say how was it they knew more than not only HDMI, but especially Dolby who probably created Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby True-HD?

You could for Dolby True HD and PCM as these can be sent on the analogue connections out of a player (I'd recommend the new Tosh EP35 coming out) into the amp via analogue. For DTS MA I believe you will need to send this via bitstream using HDMI and you need an amp that is HDMI 1.3

[Pecker]

Saw this in the processors forum,looks impressive.

http://www.onkyopro.com/model.cfm?m=PR-SC885P&p=i&class=Preamplifier

Just found:

http://avbuzz.com/bbs/av/av-thread-84895.html


Ah, I see:

"The Onkyo Professional PR-SC885P will be available in August at a suggested retail price of $1,800."

To be fair, considering it's also a video processor, that's not too bad a price.

Steve W

[Nic Rhodes]

Steve, I have admired the specs on this from a far, do we know if it is coming to the UK?

[Sonic67]

Came across this thread by accident, which raises a number of questions to my original threads that were not answered.

In the past, I quoted not only the; official HDMI organisation, but Dolby (latter, probably created Dolby Digital Plus and TrueHD) stated that HDMI 1.3 is required to maximize high definition sound (lossless audio codecs).

In the past; Nic Rhodes, ian64, Ian S and Robo 989 stated that I was wrong when I quoted Dolby and HDMI organisation.


Don't know if it helps but have you read this:

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Joshua_Zyber/High-Def_FAQ/High-Def_FAQ:_Is_HDMI_1.3_Really_Necessary/853

[movie_fan]

As many people have perfectly good 7.1 channel amps with 7.1 analogue inputs (a feature included to 'future proof' the amps in question), how about releasing a DD/dts sound processor with 7.1 outputs, and which deals with all these different sound standards?


Well, that's my point exactly! Is any of the big brands planning on releasing one of those?

[picotto]

Thought i'd throw this in from the HDMi website for people worrying over HDMI v1.3

Q. Do I need v1.3 HDMI to hear the new Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master HD audio content on HD-DVD or Blu-ray players?

No. The Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital Plus, and DTS-HD Master Audio can be decoded by the playback device into multi-channel Pulse Code Modulation (PCM) digital audio streams, which is an audio format standard that can be sent over any version of HDMI. In fact, all versions of HDMI can support up to 8 channels of PCM audio at 192kHz, 24 bits per sample.

To do this, consumers should ensure that their playback device (such as HD-DVD or Blu-ray player) is capable of decoding these new lossless Dolby & DTS audio formats into the PCM format on the HDMI output, and that the audio device (such as an A/V receiver) is capable of receiving multi-channel PCM audio over the HDMI inputs. Consult your user manual/product specification sheet to determine whether your device supports such PCM capabilities (we believe that nearly all HD-DVD and Blu-ray players will, but users should confirm this). Devices that support HDMI v1.3 and higher may also offer the option to transport the high definition audio formats as a compressed, encoded stream over HDMI so that the decoding function can be performed by the A/V receiver (whereas the above transport method has the playback device performing the decoding).

So it simply comes down to player choice and what your current if of course you have HDMI equipped amp can handle. 1.3 NOT NEEDED!

[Simondm]

Hi,

I was wandering if anybody can help? I have a Playstation 3 which decodes the sound (eg. Dolby Digital, or Dolby HD) so it is ready for speakers and an amplifier to play the sound. I want to buy an AV receiver plus speakers or a 2.1 system that can process and playback this PCM / HD sound from the Playstation 3.

My 1st question is if an AV receiver can process 24 bit PCM but can't process LPCM 2.1 / 5.1 (e.g. the Sony STR-DG520). What is the difference?

My 2nd question is: is there a standard of surround sound speaker I need to look for that can play PCM / LPCM sound in an uncomprised way, or can they all?

Thanks.