SACD players... what do they actualy go up to?

[RandomHajile]

hello, can anyone fill me in on what bandwidth do certain SACD players go up to?

i have a Sony SCD-XB940 stereo SACD player, a "budget" Sony SCD-XE670 and a Pioneer DV575 universal DVD player

basicly as ive just got some Sony SACD speakers that go up to 70khz, id like to match it with one of my decks

ive looked on line, and can only find out that the SCD-1 set to "custom" will hit full 100khz spec, and that the DVP-S9000ES hits 80khz...

anyhelp would be great.

thanks in advance

[GW43]

If you're talking about audible range, then as your ears will only be able to hear (at best, when you're young) up to about 20KHz, I can't see the point of all that head-room.

Once you start getting on a bit you lose the highest frequencies.

There is a theory that frequencies higher than those in the audible range play a role in helping us to determine the direction of sound, and therefore helps with imaging and soundstage. Whether you need it to go that high (70KHz+) I'd very much doubt, as most speakers would give out at around 30KHz, and many don't bother going much above 20KHz.

[Cable Monkey]

It is not a theory, it is measureable fact that waveforms within our audible range are made up of harmonics outside of our audible range. What is not quantifiable is to what extent this affects your enjoyment of the music. To some, not at all and to others a great deal. The golden rule is to find a setup that sounds good to you. Don't rely on statistics as the more of these there are, the greater the extent the publisher wants you to notice them rather than take the acid test of listening to your desired purchase. I would then look to things like weight, other peoples opinions and appearance before it ever came down to frequency responses and published power outputs.

I personally would argue that your source is where it is important to have the wide frequency response. The rest doesn't need to as long as the roll off in frequency response is gradual above 20Khz and it sounds good to you...

[Paul Williams]

Last weekend I went to a local exhibition about the recording industry and one of the exhibits was to test hearing ranges, my eight year old son 19.5khz, me 11.9 and 12.1khz in left and right ears respectively - I don't think I'll worry too much about the top end frequency spec of equipment any more.

Paul

[dynamic turtle]

Originally Posted by Paul Williams

Last weekend I went to a local exhibition about the recording industry and one of the exhibits was to test hearing ranges, my eight year old son 19.5khz, me 11.9 and 12.1khz in left and right ears respectively - I don't think I'll worry too much about the top end frequency spec of equipment any more.

Paul

Indeed not - you seem to be naturally rolled-off!

Actually, isn't this an argument in favour of buying "brighter" sounding kit as you get older? Seems like some extra treble energy could come in handy

DT

[Paul Williams]

Originally Posted by dynamic turtle

Indeed not - you seem to be naturally rolled-off!

Actually, isn't this an argument in favour of buying "brighter" sounding kit as you get older? Seems like some extra treble energy could come in handy

DT

Well I find as I get older I'm less tolerant of high levels of treble. I generally hate metal dome tweeters and solid state amps. This is one of the reasons I'm thinking of going down the SET route with a single full range driver. Yes even find my Romulus & Revolvers too pronounced in the treble on occasions Never been particularly impressed with hi-fi bass either, with the exception of the sound I heard in John Jeffries (the guy who designs the Lumley speaker) in his studio. Well not so much heard as felt, which included my vision blurring with the sound pressure level, but then, you had a taste of Johns magic

Originally Posted by dynamic turtle

Metropolis / Sounds of Music room - brilliant stuff. That Lumley Stratosphere turntable was amazing - incredible bass. The whole set-up was interesting - I was surprised to see a DK intergated power the speakers. Not too expensive for the incredible grip & drive it has! Real "grab you by the balls and throw you around the room" kind of sound. Wow.

Also I would point out that although I was controlling the frequency output myself, so I could take my time with the test, the environment was not exactly quiet and volume has its part to play, which was fixed. So the question is not really how high the frequency response goes, but how many & how much harmonic influence is present lower down - well maybe

Paul

[RandomHajile]

er.. okay,no body actualy answered the question of if they knew the output of said players...

BUT hey, thanks for the "leason" on the age old tale of "no one can hear over 20khz... blah blah, when your 35 its less then 15khz blah blah.."

i should of put that i am a broadcast engineer in TV, so numbers is what im after cos we are like that:P

anyways i searched the jap sites about my XB940 and its a bit vauge, it mentions 50khz at -3db but also gives this figure for the scd-1 and 9000es!!!

i guess this is just a general figure/measurment they put on all their sacd players, and not an actualy figure that when the brick wall kicks in.

i would hook up my XE670 and 575 and check what it sounds like on my ssal5mk2 speakers but i thought i could save myself the trouble and get the numbers online and work it out.

thanks all the same.

bytheway, 12khz is very low, you sure they tested you right?

[Cable Monkey]

Originally Posted by Paul Williams

Last weekend I went to a local exhibition about the recording industry and one of the exhibits was to test hearing ranges, my eight year old son 19.5khz, me 11.9 and 12.1khz in left and right ears respectively - I don't think I'll worry too much about the top end frequency spec of equipment any more.

Paul

That's not natural roll off, thats partial deafness!

I had my hearing teated when I was 17/18 regarding my job. I could hear/feel frequencies in the 19Khz range back then. I am 43 now and would be interested to see what the difference is now. One thing I do know now is loud music on dancefloors renders me deaf for a day or 2 now, never seemed to in the past. I think my hearing is probably more easily damaged than a few years ago...

[GW43]

Originally Posted by Cable Monkey

That's not natural roll off, thats partial deafness!

I had my hearing teated when I was 17/18 regarding my job. I could hear/feel frequencies in the 19Khz range back then. I am 43 now and would be interested to see what the difference is now. One thing I do know now is loud music on dancefloors renders me deaf for a day or 2 now, never seemed to in the past. I think my hearing is probably more easily damaged than a few years ago...

I got an audio test disc off Flea-bay, just to see how low my speakers went, but also it allowed me to see where my hearing cut out at the top end of the spectrum. I could hear a 12.5KHz tone, and thought I could just make out the 16KHz, but if I was being honest, I wasn't hearing it, rather being somehow aware of it. My 7 year old son could hear way above that.

It is apparently normal in your 40s to drop to 12KHz or so, depending on the abuse your ears have had in the past from either work, or "recreational" activities! Fine hairs in your ears respond to sound - the finer the hairs, the higher the frequency they respond to. These are the first to go, so we lose the top end over time. All perfectly natural, but contrary to Paul Williams, I have switched towards wanting a system with a little more prominence in the top end. Too much "warmth" just sounds dull to me.

[dynamic turtle]

Originally Posted by Paul Williams

Well I find as I get older I'm less tolerant of high levels of treble. I generally hate metal dome tweeters and solid state amps. This is one of the reasons I'm thinking of going down the SET route with a single full range driver. Yes even find my Romulus & Revolvers too pronounced in the treble on occasions Never been particularly impressed with hi-fi bass either, with the exception of the sound I heard in John Jeffries (the guy who designs the Lumley speaker) in his studio. Well not so much heard as felt, which included my vision blurring with the sound pressure level, but then, you had a taste of Johns magic



Also I would point out that although I was controlling the frequency output myself, so I could take my time with the test, the environment was not exactly quiet and volume has its part to play, which was fixed. So the question is not really how high the frequency response goes, but how many & how much harmonic influence is present lower down - well maybe

Paul

Never been impressed with hi-fi bass? Well, I guess you'll be needing something a lot punchier than R33's then! You could always add a DD18 to the mix, if you fancy

I miss my romulus actually - all that sleek stainless steel and tuneful bass

DT

[dynamic turtle]

Originally Posted by RandomHajile

er.. okay,no body actualy answered the question of if they knew the output of said players...

BUT hey, thanks for the "leason" on the age old tale of "no one can hear over 20khz... blah blah, when your 35 its less then 15khz blah blah.."

i should of put that i am a broadcast engineer in TV, so numbers is what im after cos we are like that:P

anyways i searched the jap sites about my XB940 and its a bit vauge, it mentions 50khz at -3db but also gives this figure for the scd-1 and 9000es!!!

i guess this is just a general figure/measurment they put on all their sacd players, and not an actualy figure that when the brick wall kicks in.

i would hook up my XE670 and 575 and check what it sounds like on my ssal5mk2 speakers but i thought i could save myself the trouble and get the numbers online and work it out.

thanks all the same.

bytheway, 12khz is very low, you sure they tested you right?

Well, high frequency output isn't always welcome. The SACD layer of the Dire Straights SACD causes real problems with my SET's (which are strictly 20hz-20khz). Massive amounts of distortion are generated at medium-high volumes (using a Sony DVP-NS900V). Not quite sure why this is the case, but the CD layer of the same SACD doesn't cause this problem.

The player has selectable filters for red-book, but not sacd. I think a brick-wall DSD filter would come in handy sometimes!

AFAIK, its hard enough to engineer low-distortion figures at 50khz, let alone at the theoretical 100khz, hence why these players roll-off around 50khz. This is also the limit for modern SS amps AFAIK, although some do go up to 100Khz.

More importantly, SACD sounds great to these ears (dire straits aside - this is the only sacd of my 50 strong colelction that exhibits this problem btw). Long may it continue!

DT

[RandomHajile]

thx for the reply, basicly as ur valve amp wasnt designed with SACDs and the like in mind its a bit of a danger playing SACDs thru it...

back when sony was pimping out their SACD prototype(SCD-1, same thing) at hifi/trade shows they blew up loads of "hi-end" speakers and pre/power amps because of the 100khz output!

hence why the SCD-1 now has a switch set to normal (50khz), and if you want it to go to "custom" (full 100khz) you have to screw of the protecting plate:P

for some reason most of their ES amps made in the last 10 years or so, was 100khz capable, in my manual for my stereo 3000es and 8es cinema amp, they give 100khz stats, and these amps came out in 96 and 97, well b4 SACD!

i think sony round of all their mid range SACD players to 50khz so not to "hurt" any amps out there,

and only the high-end stuff hav higher or full output.

[dynamic turtle]

Originally Posted by RandomHajile

thx for the reply, basicly as ur valve amp wasnt designed with SACDs and the like in mind its a bit of a danger playing SACDs thru it...

back when sony was pimping out their SACD prototype(SCD-1, same thing) at hifi/trade shows they blew up loads of "hi-end" speakers and pre/power amps because of the 100khz output!

hence why the SCD-1 now has a switch set to normal (50khz), and if you want it to go to "custom" (full 100khz) you have to screw of the protecting plate:P

for some reason most of their ES amps made in the last 10 years or so, was 100khz capable, in my manual for my stereo 3000es and 8es cinema amp, they give 100khz stats, and these amps came out in 96 and 97, well b4 SACD!

i think sony round of all their mid range SACD players to 50khz so not to "hurt" any amps out there,

and only the high-end stuff hav higher or full output.

Good points made there.

First, I would argue that in the case of "DDD" SACD transfers, you first have to assume that:

1) 50khz+ information is present in the original recording itself?
2) If so, will the mastering engineers keep it in there?
3) Does you amp have the accuracy to resolve 50khz+
4) Do your speakers have the ability to resolve 50khz+ (highly unlikely)
5) Will you be playing it loud enough to hear the distorion, let alone cause permanent damage to your speakers?

As I said earlier, IME, only 1 SACD out of the 75 or so I've owned hass caused me this problem. Even so, filters that roll-off quickly over 30khz would be welcome, Sony!!

Rgds,
DT

[Cable Monkey]

Originally Posted by dynamic turtle

As I said earlier, IME, only 1 SACD out of the 75 or so I've owned hass caused me this problem. Even so, filters that roll-off quickly over 30khz would be welcome, Sony!!

Rgds,
DT

You're not likely to get the response you want off them! It defeats the whole ethos behind SACD. CD's sonic issues are caused by the need to use brick wall filters to clamp the frequency response at 20Khz (due to the 44.1Khz sample rate). The objective of the higher resolution formats (24/96-192, DSD etc,etc) was to get rid of the need for such savage roll off of frequency response. To put them back in, even at 30Khz would make the research that went into DSD and the care in producing DSD masters pointless. Would it not be easier to get a more carefully produced Dire Straights recording than redesigning a whole format?

[dynamic turtle]

Originally Posted by Cable Monkey

Would it not be easier to get a more carefully produced Dire Straights recording than redesigning a whole format?

Um, yep

Guess I'll have to track down a copy on vinyl!!

DT