Progressive Scan Upgrade to DV29?

[thatMikeguy]

Hey all,
I sold my DV88P to purchase a DV29. As I have seen written about here the SI chip in the DV88P is sensational (yes it was!!!) The Vaddis 5 chip in the DV29 is inferior (IMHO). Can the DV29 be fitted with the upgrade? Is it worth doing?

[madshi]

I'd rather use HDMI 480i output of the DV29 and use an external video processor. E.g. the Lumagen Vision HDP or the iScan HD+ or VP30. The resulting image should be every bit as good as the DV88P image.

[Jack the lad]

Originally Posted by madshi

I'd rather use HDMI 480i output of the DV29 and use an external video processor. E.g. the Lumagen Vision HDP or the iScan HD+ or VP30. The resulting image should be every bit as good as the DV88P image.

I think that this is my next upgrade

[thatMikeguy]

Interesting. I would hope that going to an external scaler would significantly improve the picture from the DV88P. Otherwise the upgrade is much cheaper than getting a scaler. OK, I agree that all my components would benefit from the scaler. How do you set the DV29 to output 480i? Is it automatic? Thanks for the input guys!

[madshi]

Originally Posted by thatMikeguy

Interesting. I would hope that going to an external scaler would significantly improve the picture from the DV88P.

Not sure whether I understand your thinking here.

The iScan HD+ has the same chip inside which the DV88P also uses. So the deinterlacing will be identical (and better than Vaddis 5). However, when using the DV88P you have no digital output from the DVD player. So if you use the DV88P together with an external scaler, then the DV88P does DA (digital -> analog) conversion and the external scaler does AD conversion. That's not good. When using the DV29 together with an external scaler, the DV29 and the iScan are connected digitally through HDMI -> no conversion loss here. So when using an external scaler, the DV29 should be better than the DV88P. Without an external VP the DV88P might be better, cause it has the better deinterlacing chip built in.

Originally Posted by thatMikeguy

How do you set the DV29 to output 480i? Is it automatic? Thanks for the input guys!

You can configure that in the DV29 setup somewhere.

[thatMikeguy]

My only concern was that the DV88P didn't require a scaler to achieve the image quality (once the upgrade was complete). Hence, why did Arcam depart from the SI chip in the DV29 (the DV27A used it). Regardless, I will likely go the route of a scaler as it will improve the rest of my gear as well. You are indeed correct that it is not good practice to convert D/A back and forth. Thanks for the information sorry if my original response or thsi one sounded snarky.

[madshi]

Originally Posted by thatMikeguy

My only concern was that the DV88P didn't require a scaler to achieve the image quality (once the upgrade was complete). Hence, why did Arcam depart from the SI chip in the DV29 (the DV27A used it).

Yeah, that's a valid concern. However, if you are looking for optimal image quality, then you should get a scaler which can scale the image to the native resolution of your display. Having 1:1 pixel mapping can improve the image quality quite noticably. You can't do this with the DV88P, cause it can not scale the image.

Of course it also depends on your display. If it doesn't allow for 1:1 pixel mapping, then an external scaler might not help so much (depending very much on the circumstances).

Originally Posted by thatMikeguy

Regardless, I will likely go the route of a scaler as it will improve the rest of my gear as well.

Well, I hope you'll choose the right one. If you want one which also does a good job with HD content, then the choice is a bit difficult right now.

[thatMikeguy]

I read somewhere that a scaler is not able to process the info. over HDMI (or component for that matter). I am really in the dark about this process but suffice to say that with a good quality scaler this is possible? I have a 42" Hitachi Projection LCD HDTV with resolution of 1280x720 and the capability to do 1080i, how would I know if it can do 1:1 pixel mapping? I use the Arcam DV29 over HDMI and a Rogers HD Digital Cable Box over component. Will a scaler be able to help both using these connections?

[madshi]

Originally Posted by thatMikeguy

I read somewhere that a scaler is not able to process the info. over HDMI (or component for that matter).

Process which info? I'm not sure what you mean...

Originally Posted by thatMikeguy

I have a 42" Hitachi Projection LCD HDTV with resolution of 1280x720 and the capability to do 1080i

In this case you should output 720p from your scaler.

Originally Posted by thatMikeguy

how would I know if it can do 1:1 pixel mapping?

Can you adjust overscan on your display? Can you zoom in and out of the image "pixelwise" or even "subpixelwise"? I don't know your display.

Originally Posted by thatMikeguy

I use the Arcam DV29 over HDMI and a Rogers HD Digital Cable Box over component. Will a scaler be able to help both using these connections?

Well, a good external scaler would certainly help somewhat. How much it would help exactly is hard to say, though. Can you try to get a demo somehow? E.g. try to get a demo of the Lumagen Vision HDP. Or even better, wait a bit and try to get a demo of the new scalers Vantage-HD, Algolith Dragonfly or Crystalio II. Those 3 are all new gen scalers which should give you some very nice results. Of course they also cost a lot of money. The big question is how important is that last little bit of additional image quality to you and how much worth is it to you in dollars? That's hard to judge, because it's a very subjective thing. Because of that I'd really recommend to try to get a demo somehow.

[Liam @ Prog AV]

Originally Posted by madshi

The iScan HD+ has the same chip inside which the DV88P also uses. So the deinterlacing will be identical (and better than Vaddis 5). However, when using the DV88P you have no digital output from the DVD player. So if you use the DV88P together with an external scaler, then the DV88P does DA (digital -> analog) conversion and the external scaler does AD conversion. That's not good. When using the DV29 together with an external scaler, the DV29 and the iScan are connected digitally through HDMI -> no conversion loss here. So when using an external scaler, the DV29 should be better than the DV88P. Without an external VP the DV88P might be better, cause it has the better deinterlacing chip built in.

Not quite right. Deinterlacing will no doubt be very similar, especially for well flagged film mode stuff, but scaling won't be. There are also the other tools available within a scaler (gamma adjustment, colour error repair, mosquito noise filter, y/c adjustment etc) that all go toward improving the image but that aren't actually anything to do with deinterlacing. And as has been said, other sources will see benefit, and you will be able to run 1:1 pixel matching using only the superior scaling inside the dedicated video processor.

[Liam @ Prog AV]

Originally Posted by thatMikeguy

How do you set the DV29 to output 480i? Is it automatic? Thanks for the input guys!

Obviously only worth doing if you have a scaler attached to the DV29, which can actually accept the signal.

Run an analogue (s-vid, component etc) connection to the scaler/display. Set output priority to analogue, progressive scan off, for Lumagens set colourspace to component.

[Liam @ Prog AV]

Originally Posted by jack daws

I think that this is my next upgrade

Damn right it is!!!

[Liam @ Prog AV]

Originally Posted by thatMikeguy

I read somewhere that a scaler is not able to process the info. over HDMI (or component for that matter). I am really in the dark about this process but suffice to say that with a good quality scaler this is possible? I have a 42" Hitachi Projection LCD HDTV with resolution of 1280x720 and the capability to do 1080i, how would I know if it can do 1:1 pixel mapping? I use the Arcam DV29 over HDMI and a Rogers HD Digital Cable Box over component. Will a scaler be able to help both using these connections?

HDMI cannot be processed by a scaler if you intend to use an analogue output. HDMI spec insists digital in, digital out. You will be fine. However what adds to the confusion is some scalers can't accept HD resolutions, or can but only pass them through. In other words, stick with Lumagen!

1:1 pixel mapping will be 1280 x 720 output (i.e. 720p). You should be able to select 16:9 or native aspect ratio to "lock in" and roberts your fathers brother! A Lumagen at least can take 720p from the HD box, filter and run colour/gamma/grayscale adjustment it but otherwise not scale. It can do amazing things with 1080i, converting internally to 1080p and then downscaling to 720p for 1:1 matching. DVD will run 480i HDMI-DVI to the Lumagen, for the Luma to do all deinterlacing and scaling, and then output at 720p for 1:1 matching. The Luma dynamically adjusts itself to all these different signals.

[madshi]

Originally Posted by Liam @ Prog AV

Not quite right. Deinterlacing will no doubt be very similar, especially for well flagged film mode stuff, but scaling won't be. There are also the other tools available within a scaler (gamma adjustment, colour error repair, mosquito noise filter, y/c adjustment etc) that all go toward improving the image but that aren't actually anything to do with deinterlacing. And as has been said, other sources will see benefit, and you will be able to run 1:1 pixel matching using only the superior scaling inside the dedicated video processor.

Hi Liam,

in what way was I not quite right? I don't see anything in your comment which contradicts what I wrote.

[Liam @ Prog AV]

Whoops forgot to go on to say that the iScan may be better at detecting stranger cadences to correctly apply film mode deinterlacing so will effectively be giving a better deinterlaced image. In terms of the Lumagen (which also uses Sil504) this is definitely the case.