So..Is Windows Media Centre any good?

[Tony H]

Hello all,

I have spent a long time looking into buying the Sony HXD710 PVR and have just recently noticed a Media PC in a Makro flyer which got me thinking. I am now very interested in buying a Media PC and have many questions so here goes:

1)

What do people think of WMC? I have seen some online demos and it looks very impressive in terms of what you can do with it. No doubt being a Microsoft product it is full of bugs, but hopefully these will in time be fixed with updates. So, accepting the bug issues, what do people like/dislike about it?

On this subject I found this on Evesham web site: "Can I edit Recorded TV files?

* There is currently no way to edit DVR-MS files (the format used for recorded TV files). Microsoft is currently working with third-party software manufacturers to add support for DVR-MS files to their products."

This seems a bit disappointing, and if I am correct they seem to be saying that you can not edit the recordings so would be stuck with adverts etc, but in time one would assume you can use third party software? Any advice on this in particular would be very useful, as for me being able to edit is very important. Lets face it, who wants adverts in a music recording...well anything come to think of it!

2)

I am a bit confused about how you would connect it up to the TV. I dont have a plasma or LCD but it does have the usual composite (the r/y/w and the b/r/g), 3 scarts, s-video and optical input etc. Am I right in saying you can get a VGA to scart? If so, I presume these come with the sound leads too?

3)

According to the Evesham site, the refresh rate of TVs are about 50 hertz whilst VGA is typically 75. They indicated WMC changed the rate down to about 60. Is this likely to cause any problems with veiwing normal TV and playback of any recordings etc or DVD's? I find all this sort of thing a bit confusing to be honest!

4)

As I understand, WMC PC's are being sold with a remote control. Is this a standard remote that they have all agreed to, for the relevant controls needed for the WMC software?

5)

Are there any known issues with recording from the Sky+ box? Can you easily record from the Sky+ hard drive and direct from Sky to the WMC PC hard drive?

6)

Are you able to browse the internet in the same way you would on a normal PC? I presume you can configure Internet Explorer and Firefox browers as normal? I also assume that you can put any software you choose onto the drives.

7)

Are there any limitations with regard to adding additional hard drives and other hardware? My understanding it that WMC is just XP with some extras for the TV recordings etc....but maybe I have got this very wrong!

Well thats it for now, should keep you all going for a while and thanks in advance to anyone who takes the trouble to reply.....I am hoping to get to the local computer shop this weekend to see it in practice so might be a bit more clued up by Monday but no doubt the usual idiots in these shops will not have a clue!

Cheers,

Tony H

[sanderton]

Originally Posted by Tony H

1)

What do people think of WMC? I have seen some online demos and it looks very impressive in terms of what you can do with it. No doubt being a Microsoft product it is full of bugs, but hopefully these will in time be fixed with updates. So, accepting the bug issues, what do people like/dislike about it?

On this subject I found this on Evesham web site: "Can I edit Recorded TV files?

* There is currently no way to edit DVR-MS files (the format used for recorded TV files). Microsoft is currently working with third-party software manufacturers to add support for DVR-MS files to their products."

This seems a bit disappointing, and if I am correct they seem to be saying that you can not edit the recordings so would be stuck with adverts etc, but in time one would assume you can use third party software? Any advice on this in particular would be very useful, as for me being able to edit is very important. Lets face it, who wants adverts in a music recording...well anything come to think of it!

I think it's great! There are some bugs in the handling of Freeview and in particular with the EPG data, but nothing I can't live with.

You can edit DVR-MS files; you have to convert them to MPEG-2 firts - which is lossless and quick.

2)

I am a bit confused about how you would connect it up to the TV. I dont have a plasma or LCD but it does have the usual composite (the r/y/w and the b/r/g), 3 scarts, s-video and optical input etc. Am I right in saying you can get a VGA to scart? If so, I presume these come with the sound leads too?

VGA to SCART leads only work with radeon cards. They are made up to order, and you can spec them with sound.

3)

According to the Evesham site, the refresh rate of TVs are about 50 hertz whilst VGA is typically 75. They indicated WMC changed the rate down to about 60. Is this likely to cause any problems with veiwing normal TV and playback of any recordings etc or DVD's? I find all this sort of thing a bit confusing to be honest!

Sound like ****** from Evesham. Mine's running happily at 50Hz.

4)

As I understand, WMC PC's are being sold with a remote control. Is this a standard remote that they have all agreed to, for the relevant controls needed for the WMC software?

Yes, all green button remotes have the same codes.

5)

Are there any known issues with recording from the Sky+ box? Can you easily record from the Sky+ hard drive and direct from Sky to the WMC PC hard drive?

Sky+ has only one output, so you can't play something back from Sky+ is MCE is using its output to record. And MCE will have lower picture quality than native Sky+. So I wouldn't recommend that approach.

6)

Are you able to browse the internet in the same way you would on a normal PC? I presume you can configure Internet Explorer and Firefox browers as normal? I also assume that you can put any software you choose onto the drives.

Yes; close the MCE interface and you have a perfectly normal Windows XP Professional PC.

7)

Are there any limitations with regard to adding additional hard drives and other hardware? My understanding it that WMC is just XP with some extras for the TV recordings etc....but maybe I have got this very wrong!
:

No, although only certain tuner cards will work within MCE (They'll work fine outside the MCE interface).

[deksawyer]

Tony

have a look at this site, they specialize in MCE machines and can build to whatever spec you need.

http://www.mediapc.tv

I've bought components from them before and they were first class. Althought I build my own PC's, I'd advice anyone else to buy from a company like mediapc rather than PC World and the companies you mention......you don't really want an ugly, noisy PC next to the TV do you..??

D.

[Tony H]

Hi Sanderton and Deksawyer,

Thanks for your help.

The machine I have seen is an Acer and uses an ATI card. So if scart only works with a Radeon card, then how are other machines being hooked up. I presume composite or s-video etc? I dont really mind how I hook it up, but I would prefer to use the best method for convenience and usability.

I work with PCs and have thought about building my own, but when I did a quick price check the other day I very soon got to cost price of the Acer. However I still have not ruled this out, so any advice of what components you used and why would be much appreciated. Is there a thread anywhere where people are listing what they used to build their own machines, that would be very useful and helpful!

I am not afraid of building my own, but I think the prices could be quite high. With VAT, the Acer comes in at £475. I saw some cards aimed at WMC (ie they said they were WMC compatible) at a local company that are good for prices (Novatech if anyone is interested) and they had two such cards at nearly £400! OK, I appreciate that it is a short term rip off jumping on the bandwagon, but unless you know what cards definately work with WMC then you could be in trouble. I will continue to try and souce as much info as possible and if I can get all the kit for under £500 I will build my own. My other option is just to buy the Sony HXD710, but I would rather have a dedicated PC is possible.

Deksawyer I take your point about a noisy PC, but I really hope these manufacturers are making sure they put in truely quiet PSU's, but unless you can hear it boot up you will never know! I suppose a replacement PSU will only add another £30-£40 if needed.

Any ideas of how to get copies of my Sky+ recordings onto a WMC PC hard disk drive or onto the optical disk would be appreciated. This can be done with the Sony HXD710 so I really need to know I can record from Sky+, otherwise the attraction of having a media PC will fast wear off!

Anyway, many thanks for your help which is much appreciated.....seems like I have a lot to learn over the next month or so!

Cheers!

Tony H

PS: Sorry Deksawyer, just noticed you listed your kit at the bottom of your post...that is so cool and helpful. Can you let me know how much though the total kit cost..thanks.

[Barbarosa]

What it doesn't do:

No official DVB-S support.

No Real Audio Internet Radio e.g. BBC.

Won't play lossless media formats like .flac or .ape.

There are alternatives available, I use Media Portal, which may not be quite as stable, but has a lot more features, and it's free!

[jonsayers]

On this subject I found this on Evesham web site: "Can I edit Recorded TV files?

* There is currently no way to edit DVR-MS files (the format used for recorded TV files). Microsoft is currently working with third-party software manufacturers to add support for DVR-MS files to their products."

This is rubbish! PowerDirector 3 allows you to edit dvr-ms files straight of the box.

[Tony H]

Thanks Barbarosa and jonsayers,

A couple of points and please excuse my ignorance, but what is DVB-S? Also, what is meant by "lossless media formats like .flac or .ape."?

My main real concerns are will I beable to get excellent quality recording from my Sky+ box and what is the best way to go about this?

Today, as promised, I visited my local PC World. As suspected, the first 2 plonks I spoke to knew nothing! I knew more than them, quite shocking really! They must have had at least 8 different WMC PC's set up and noone knew their stuff! I did speak to one other, who I formed the impression he was at least interested....well he was listening to me telling him what I have learned so far !!! LOL

What I did manage to find out myself by playing with WMC was that under the settings area for the TV connections, it seemed to only mention composite, s-video and RGB via the r/g/b leads (not scart). I am therefore assuming at this stage that I will be able to play anything from the PC through the TV by connecting the r/g/b connections and of course setting up the hardware to recognise this, although I think on the TV it will just detect it. I am still not sure how I will get back the other way though, imputting the sky box signal to the PC. What are the options?

At the moment, I have my main ariel (Co-axe) going direct into the back of the Sky+ box, I then take one RF out direct to a TV upstairs, whilst the other (the one you would normally take to the back of the TV or onto something like the old VHS recorder etc) goes off into a booster box, which then feeds the rest of the house. This way I have Sky all over the house. I assume, that as I have a spare feed out of this booster, I will be able to just take this direct into the ariel in on the TV tuner on the back of the PC. Am I on the right track or is it all going to be much more complicated than this??

Many thanks all for all your help........I have almost definately decided this is the way to go, so it is just a case of working it all out in my mind really.

Cheers all!

Tony H

I think.... I have just realised that although I might get the picture signal in this way, I am not sure it will be full stereo etc? I therefore presume I will also need to go s-video from the back of the Sky+ box into s-video on the back of any tv tuner on the PC? Also, then run audio red and white leads out of back of Sky+ box to the sound in on the PC? God this is getting more confusing by the minute!!! Please help!

[fraggle]

Originally Posted by Tony H

Thanks Barbarosa and jonsayers,

A couple of points and please excuse my ignorance, but what is DVB-S?

DVB-S is digital tv over satellite (i.e. Sky). (as opposed to from your TV transmitter tower, AKA Freeview)

Also, what is meant by "lossless media formats like .flac or .ape."?

Alternatives to MP3s that offer higher audio quality, IMHO only really noticable if you're a real audio quality nut (I am really but high quality MP3s encoded with the Lame encoder set right sound great to me)

My main real concerns are will I beable to get excellent quality recording from my Sky+ box and what is the best way to go about this?

I don't have Sky+, I have Tivo, but from what I know:-

You connect the Sky+ box upto the MCE PC, choose either RF or S-Video connection (it can be done via RBG, but not directly in MCE)

Tell MCE its controlling a satellite box. Plug in an IR sender into the MCE PC and aim it at the Sky+ box, the MCE PC will then turn over the Sky+ box when it wants to record something.

But really, at the moment MCEs are really only happy with internal tuner cards inside them (or connected via USB2), these can be analogue or freeview cards, and you can have one or more of them installed. (got to be same type)

I don't think you can mix controlling an external satellite box with an internal freeview card for example.

What I did manage to find out myself by playing with WMC was that under the settings area for the TV connections, it seemed to only mention composite, s-video and RGB via the r/g/b leads (not scart).

It will depend on the graphics card you have in the MCE. Some have built in Composite/S Video/RGB output that you can get a lead made up for that has a SCART on the other end. Some only have the VGA monitor output that you have to buy a box that converts it to a RGB signal thats compatible with what a TVs SCART socket accepts.

Its a case of setting up Windows basic monitor setup and MCEs output setup.

As to the refresh rates, there's software out there that you install on the MCE that forces the screen to goto 50Hz, or 60Hz, whatever you want. You set it up and forget it.

[bardel]

DVB-S means Digital Video Broadcasting - Satellite.

If you have DVB-S tuner card, then you plug your satellite feed directly into the PC not a set top box as this card does the tuning. Not sure how it works with your Sky membership details etc maybe you can only get the "free" sky channels?

If you are feeding your Sky+ throughout the house via Co-Ax RF and you want to use this to feed your PC, then you will need an analogue TV Tuner and tune one of the channels to your Sky+ RF output (as you have with your other telly's). If you go this route I don't think you can make use of the TV Guide data as the Media PC isn't in control of changing the channel of the Sky+ box.

Lastly, I've listed my Media PC spec which I am currently building (when the last parcel arrives) on this thread here... It's a bit higher in price than you've mentioned and is probably overkill for MCE, but hopefully it will be a little future proofed...
Shop Shop Shop Shop

Edited to add:

Beaten to it by Fraggle!

Didn't think about the IR Sending option, probably a bit unreliable but you never know... As Fraggle says, really designed to work with it's own internal / usb tuner cards.

[David PluggedIn]

My main real concerns are will I beable to get excellent quality recording from my Sky+ box and what is the best way to go about this?

I would suggest that WindowsMCE isnt the best solution for you. If you want to archive Sky+, then you need to capture the signal at its highest quality, which is RGB. MCE works better as a nice HTPC front end (it works really well using digital freeview tuners as the integrated EPG is very nice)

if you have a search for Sweetspot on here...

[Tony H]

Hi fraggle, bardel and David PluggedIn,

Thanks for your replies and explanations.

I like the versatality that a Media PC will allow, especially upgrading hardware, better, bigger and faster drives etc etc and of course with the PC you can always plug into the latest technology going around. That is a real attraction for me. What I dont like so far is the hassle (seemingly) that it would appear to be to hook up a Sky+ box. I think the problem seems to be getting the signal from the Sky box to the PC, not getting the signals out of the PC to the TV for DVD playback etc.

From what I know so far, there seems to be various work arounds and ways of doing it all dependant on the kit of the PC. WMC is impressive, but would it just be a whole lot easier to just go a buy the Sony HXD710, which has no problem with recording from the RGB scart output. Its a tough decision, but, if I am honest, it may just be better to take the easy option. After all, in the next room I have a PC which I can use to create any sort of disk, picture disk etc to play back on the PVR. Maybe, in another 6 months WMC PCs will come with the TV tuners and Graphics cards that easily allow for the Sky+ box to be connected?

I have some serious thinking to do over the Christmas holiday, but at least it will be fun looking into it all. At least if I go with the Sony, my missus will be much happier, she was not too keen on a PC next to the TV, even though there was the perfect gap for it! LOL

Anway, thanks again for all your help....I will keep checking back to any further comments made on this subject.

Cheers!

Tony H

[sniff]

Your whole final post sums it up for me. But in particular

Originally Posted by Tony H

I think the problem seems to be getting the signal from the Sky box to the PC, not getting the signals out of the PC to the TV for DVD playback etc.

Sky or Sky+ to an MCE PC is just not perfect enough. It's definitely watchable (on a 28" CRT), but I wouldn't like to watch it on a £1500+ Plasma/LCD HD tv. I expect I would be too disappointed.

Freeview sounds like it's ok, but I can't get freeview......

[nigelbb]

Originally Posted by sniff

Sky or Sky+ to an MCE PC is just not perfect enough. It's definitely watchable (on a 28" CRT), but I wouldn't like to watch it on a £1500+ Plasma/LCD HD tv. I expect I would be too disappointed.

Freeview sounds like it's ok, but I can't get freeview......

You can use MCE with all the Free To Air channels on the Sky platform (BBC1/2/3/4, ITV1/2/3/4 etc) using a Technotrend TT1500 satellite card & TT drivers that pretend to MCE that it is a DVB-T (Freeview card). A limited selection of channels compared to a Sky subscription (or even Freeview) but vastly superior picture quality compared to capturing output from a digibox (or even Freeview).

[David PluggedIn]

You can use MCE with all the Free To Air channels on the Sky platform (BBC1/2/3/4, ITV1/2/3/4 etc) using a Technotrend TT1500 satellite card & TT drivers that pretend to MCE that it is a DVB-T

sounds interesting...will have to give that a try

[bad robot]

I have the Sony 710 and i just burn out already edited recordings from the harddrive. All you need to do then is to use an app like DVD Decrypter to rip all the VOB files to your PC.

Works a treat and the beauty is every chapter you insert on the 710 is a individual file making it ideal for music videos etc.
No silly clumsy PC editing required...