When are the first 1080p panels coming out?

[scooby77]

Hi

This has probably been covered somewhere but when are these panels being released??

2006?

Who is bringing out the first lot. I know you can already buy them abroad.

[StooMonster]

Some LCDs out now, use a search engine. 65" and 50" 1920x1080 plasmas due out next year, 65" version was supposed to be out in Japan in Nov05.

"Abroad" many displays (like rear projection TVs) say they are 1080p, but they mean 1080 lines of resolution ... ironically they only accept 1080i signal and will not display 1080p one!

StooMonster

[welwynnick]

Going on the AVS experience, I wonder how many more times this debate will be aired over here next year.

Perhaps if we could just call them 1080 line displays, that would avoid the inevitable automatic retorts. I believe that all fixed pixel displays are progressive, and have to process internally in just the same way that current displays do. Many 768 line displays also do not accept native digital inputs, so should we call them 720 line displays? Of course not.

The convention is that the designation comes from the display resolution, not it’s input capability. Of course, native digital inputs are very worthwhile, but the only significance of a 1080i input is that the display does the de-interlacing instead of an external unit. It’s not as if you actually get an interlaced display.

There are many units already in use from the usual suspects – Samsung, Toshiba, Mitsubishi, JVC…. But the favourites so far are the HP DLP, and Sony SXRD RPTVs, which should be here next spring. Many have said that the SXRDs have effective 1080i de-interlacing, meaning there is less need for a high quality external video processor.

However, I read a CNET review yesterday that said the Sony picture was improved when fed with a progressive, rather than interlaced, output from a Denon 2900 DVD player. That is compelling evidence that 1080p inputs are important, because it shows that even the top dog Sony can be improved with better quality de-interlacing. And that was only on a SD source.

What these new displays will look like with a Gennum or Realta video processor, I can only lose sleep over.

Nick

[Stephen Neal]

Originally Posted by welwynnick

However, I read a CNET review yesterday that said the Sony picture was improved when fed with a progressive, rather than interlaced, output from a Denon 2900 DVD player. That is compelling evidence that 1080p inputs are important, because it shows that even the top dog Sony can be improved with better quality de-interlacing. And that was only on a SD source.

When articles review de-interlacers - are they talking about de-interlacing progressive source material (like 24p or 25p film / video sources) or 50/60i video sources ?

If the article was a US one and looking at 60Hz material - then surely the de-interlacing process will have to include 3:2 pull-down (and redundant field)detection on poorly mastered discs?, and 3:2 pull-down frame repetition after de-interlacing, whereas with 50Hz 25p sources the redundant field detection, and frame repetition, is not a requirement?

I'd have thought de-interlacing progressive/film sources was one area where the 60Hz US and 50Hz Europe regions differed significantly in performance terms - as the two de-interlacing processes are significantly different?

[welwynnick]

I don't think reviewers always have that level of insight into what goes right and wrong within a TV. CNET are a US website, and one of the better ones. The link to the review is here, and a few other good ones are easy to find:

http://reviews.cnet.com/Sony_KDS_R60...5.html?tag=toc

For the record, they would have used a 60Hz NTSC DVD. De-interlacing did use film mode, which is necessarily with 3:2 pull-down.

I'm not exactly sure what the impact is on de-interlacing performance. Whether 2:2 or 3:2, cadence detection is still needed, and I think this is more straightforward with 60Hz, as the processor simply has to look for the first sequence of three identical fields. The need to add additional frames after de-interlacing is rather trivial in comparison - anything can do number crunching these days.

With 2:2 pulldown, each frame is reproduced in pairs of fields, and the processor has to determine which pairs of adjacent fields are the same, which I think is more difficult, and is the key to effective PAL film mode.

So yes, just because film mode works well with NTSC does not necessarily mean it will work well with PAL. In this specific case, where the display de-interlacer left something to be desired with SD NTSC, I think it would most likely perform worse with PAL, HD or video, or all three!

Nick

[NicolasB]

the only significance of a 1080i input is that the display does the de-interlacing instead of an external unit.

That's pretty significant if you ask me. Besides, what if you want to plug your PlayStation 3 into it? That's 1080p. So is a PC running at 1920x1080.

[scooby77]

ok thanks for the replies

i think what i meant is when are true 1080 panels coming out not just ones that support 1080. I appreciate some larger screens are out at the moment but what about more conventional sizes 26"-40"?

[pietnoeck]

What about this screen ?

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/p...&page=external

[welwynnick]

Originally Posted by pietnoeck

What about this screen ?
http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/p...&page=external

That's the very well known DELL UltraSharp 2405FPW 24-inch Wide Aspect Flat Panel LCD Monitor.

1920x1200 resolution. Quite expensive, as you might expect, but owners always rave about them.
They don't have HDCP compliant input, though. (not that that's necessarily a show stopper)

Nick

[welwynnick]

Originally Posted by scooby77

i think what i meant is when are true 1080 panels coming out not just ones that support 1080. ?

Could you explain what you mean by that?

[Stephen Neal]

Originally Posted by welwynnick

Could you explain what you mean by that?

I think he meant when will 1080 line panels that support 1080p inputs, rather than 1080i inputs, become available.

[scooby77]

Originally Posted by Stephen Neal

I think he meant when will 1080 line panels that support 1080p inputs, rather than 1080i inputs, become available.

yeah exactly. a 'small' 1080p panel with HDMI. Please don't bother with the technical stuff too much unless you guys are discussing it amongst yourself cos i won't get it

i know about the dell. so if i'm running a xbox 360 through it will it simply scale down to 1080i?

[pjskel]

No, the 360 outputs at 1080i, the TV would de-interlace the signal before displaying.
As for 1080p native 26 & 32" - highly unlikely to happen. No need for TV viewing to have such high density of pixels in a small area. Native 1080 panels will be 37" + where the quantity does make a difference from normal view distances.
As for 1080p input acceptance - most don't, since there's been no real need to. You could count on one hand the number of commercially available products there are that do throw out a 1080p signal - and they are all upscaling DVD players.
The next season's TVs (if not any in Spring '06) due Sept/Oct '06, may have 1080p input, for PS3 compatibility. But if not, then it'll be '07 before they are likely to make a mass appearance.

[Stephen Neal]

Originally Posted by welwynnick

I don't think reviewers always have that level of insight into what goes right and wrong within a TV. CNET are a US website, and one of the better ones. The link to the review is here, and a few other good ones are easy to find:

http://reviews.cnet.com/Sony_KDS_R60...5.html?tag=toc

For the record, they would have used a 60Hz NTSC DVD. De-interlacing did use film mode, which is necessarily with 3:2 pull-down.

I'm not exactly sure what the impact is on de-interlacing performance. Whether 2:2 or 3:2, cadence detection is still needed, and I think this is more straightforward with 60Hz, as the processor simply has to look for the first sequence of three identical fields. The need to add additional frames after de-interlacing is rather trivial in comparison - anything can do number crunching these days.

With 2:2 pulldown, each frame is reproduced in pairs of fields, and the processor has to determine which pairs of adjacent fields are the same, which I think is more difficult, and is the key to effective PAL film mode.

So yes, just because film mode works well with NTSC does not necessarily mean it will work well with PAL. In this specific case, where the display de-interlacer left something to be desired with SD NTSC, I think it would most likely perform worse with PAL, HD or video, or all three!

Nick

These days the 2:2 cadence of 25p material carried as 50i should be fixed. It is VERY unusual for edits to be made on tape on field, rather than frame boundaries these days. So cadence detection shouldn't be that difficult at all. (In fact almost all of the time, with modern material, it will be the two fields in each frame)

In the US it is much more common for the 3:2 cadence to be broken, because if you edit 24p material as 60i on tape, you DO have to edit at field boundaries to guarantee a continued cadence (as you need mixed frames) These days though, more and more material is edited 24p, and the 3:2 cadence created on playout. (Though ad breaks will interrupt this)

The toughest situations are where film and video (50i/60i native) sequences are intercut - say in a 70s/80s show like Dr Who or a sit com - where the de-interlacer has to dynamically detect and switch from film to video mode. I often read reviews of the de-interlacing performance on film material (such as movie transfers), but seldom see as much time spent on the much more difficult task of de-interlacing video sources.

(With film you're just stitching two fields back into a frame - and only have to detect the two fields that make the frame. With video you have to interpolate two new fields, or entire frames, which involves creating new picture information, and is a much more difficult task)

[welwynnick]

Originally Posted by pjskel

You could count on one hand the number of commercially available products there are that do throw out a 1080p signal - and they are all upscaling DVD players.

There are many HTPCs and scalers that output 1080p over RGB, VGA, component, DVI or HDMI. Like mine. That's where my interest in 1080p inputs lies.

Nick