Advice needed..for newcomer

[Grease]

Hello

I am a newcomer to the scene, and while having a half decent seperates system, want to upgrade. I have a budget of £4500 and like a crisp, clear detaield sound, any recommendations?

[Triggaaar]

Nice budget. What do you have at the moment? Are you wanting to upgrade because you have the cash, and it's fun, or is there a specific area you want to improve?

Where in the country are you? With that budget, you really need a good dealer who will give you plenty of time to demo some great stuff.

[Grease]

Hello

Thank you for the quick reply.

At the moment I have the following:

Rotel Amp
Yamaha tape deck
Technics EQ
Denon Tuner
Technics
And some lovely Mission speakers!

I have two options, if I want to buy it soon, i can buy one component at a time, or wait six months or so, until after I have purchased my flat and buy it all at once. But I will def buy!

I want something thats class. That I won't have to upgrade or change in like teo or three years time. Ascetics are also important to me, I want it to loookk good! I am also thinking about puchasing a CD players with MP3 capability, or will this mean not as good sound quality?

Im in the UK, living close to London, there is a real good shop next to me, Acoustic Arts, he has nice stuff.

Also, Im not adverse to buying used or thorugh ebay. I seen a nice Mark Levinson amp....

[Londondecca]

Choosing could be very hard. For example you could buy some Quad ELS63's for about £1000 and match them with some nice valve amps or maybe Sudgen A21 (£1000), add a decent CD player and the sound could be near perfection for about £3000

or

You could go down the mainstream route of Cyrus, Linn etc

or

How about some less famous stuff such as Avondale Audio

or

Visit as many shops as you can and anything you are serious about buying, always get a home demo.

It is easy to spend £4500 and even easier to end up with a terrible sounding system

[Grease]

Whats your view on buying second hand? Theres a nice Mark Levinson amp going.......

[nirmal]

'I want something thats class. That I won't have to upgrade or change in like teo or three years time. Ascetics are also important to me, I want it to loookk good!'

May I suggest the Shanling CD T-100 cd player, Prima Luna prologue series amp, and Sonus Faber cremona Auditor speakers. You cant find better in terms of porn value, and I think it will fit in neatly with your budget. I haven't auditioned any of these myself (I am not a valve fan), but they seem to get very good reviews by end users (and the mags also, if you consider their opinions). From what I have heared, they have a very warm and easy on the ears sound, but are not the last word in accuracy and extension.

The advantage with valve gear is that upgraditis is usually limited to valve rolling; that is usually enough to keep most audiophiles happy for years. The disadvantages are greater maintainance costs and manual input long term. You either love 'valve sound' or you hate it. Try it and see if it is for you.

Cheers,
Nirmal

[Triggaaar]

Originally Posted by Grease

I... like a crisp, clear detaield sound

Have you heard systems that are crisp, clear and detailed (if so, what were they?), or are you trying to imagine what you'd like?

I haven't ever looked at that budget, but I have demoed a few bits.
Speakers:
I don't know if Dynaudio will fit into you preffered style, but I would recommend the contour 1.3mkIIs (I think these have been replaced, so check out their current line-up).
I would definitely be looking at a seperate DAC: (I haven't yet listened to either of these, but I will one day).
Chord DAC 64 is a popular old timer, and costs about a grand 2nd hand.
Audio Synthesis DAX Decade is also very popular with that budget.
Amp - you'd need to demo solid & valve.

Is this all for your living room, or a dedicated room. If dedicated, the best investment you'll be able to make is room treatment. If it's a living room (or simillar), do you have carpets, curtains, etc? What are its characteristics (is it live?)?

[Knightshade]

Originally Posted by Grease

Whats your view on buying second hand? Theres a nice Mark Levinson amp going.......

Buying secondhand is a good way of getting something very special. Especially with the £4500 budget. Amps and DAC's are usually a safe bet. CDP's are a little more difficult. They do have moving parts after all. Speakers are usually OK as well. Most people tend to look after their kit in this game.
I would also suggest you go and listen to as much as possible. £4500 can buy you a superb system, it can also buy you expensive rubbish.
On that budget I'd probably look at something like this:
PMC FB1/OB1
NOS DAC (Having had a DAC64 and ended up hating it.....)
Any CD player under £600 new.
Linn AV5103 Processor (Used as a pre amp)
Linn Klimax Twin Power
Should come in round about the £4200 mark.

[alexs2]

I think one of the main problems with a reasonable budget is the vast choice it gives you,and has already been said,the scope to spend a lot of money and come away with something that either sounds superb,or awful.

You do need to listen to as many systems,both from one manufaturer,and from a variety of makers,as possible,until you get some idea of what sort of sound you like,and then start making up a shortlist to try at home.
Be prepared to put a good bit of time into it,and you will find something you can be happy with for some time.

I've been happy buying used/ex-dem equipment,but you do have to look very carefully at it,and try before you buy....the older Levinsons were always very good amps,with bags of power,and very tolerant of difficult speakers,with a very neutral sound,so the one you mentioned,providing it's in good nick,may well be worth a look.

Since you mentioned liking a clear and detailed sound,you could add the B&W 805/804 speakers to your list,but you will need a decent power amp for these.

[alexs2]

Originally Posted by nirmal

'I want something thats class. That I won't have to upgrade or change in like teo or three years time. Ascetics are also important to me, I want it to loookk good!'

May I suggest the Shanling CD T-100 cd player, Prima Luna prologue series amp, and Sonus Faber cremona Auditor speakers. You cant find better in terms of porn value, and I think it will fit in neatly with your budget. I haven't auditioned any of these myself (I am not a valve fan), but they seem to get very good reviews by end users (and the mags also, if you consider their opinions). From what I have heared, they have a very warm and easy on the ears sound, but are not the last word in accuracy and extension.

The advantage with valve gear is that upgraditis is usually limited to valve rolling; that is usually enough to keep most audiophiles happy for years. The disadvantages are greater maintainance costs and manual input long term. You either love 'valve sound' or you hate it. Try it and see if it is for you.

Cheers,
Nirmal

The Shanling is a very decent player for the price,but your comments about valve rolling,or changing tubes are missing the mark a bit perhaps....most valve amps have a fairly limited scope for this,and most owners settle very quickly on combinations of input/drive/output tubes that work well together.
The vast majority of owners don't even go that far,and will stick with what the manufacturer bundles with the amps.
Maintenance costs are more than S/S amps,but still very manageable in the long term,and most are now very reliable.
I've owned both S/S and tubed amps for many yrs,with no problems.
You will also find that there are just as many fairly clinical sounding tubed amps as there are warm ones...a lot depends on the output tubes and topology.

[dynamic turtle]

I think we're sort of missing the point here - starting at the wrong place.

1) You mention you're moving house soon? Well, the sensible thing to do is wait until you've moved before deciding on what to buy. Room acoustic characteristics play a huge role in final sound quality. Also, you don't want everything getting bashed-around & dusty before/during/after the move either. This will give you plenty of time to RESEARCH EVERYTHING THOROUGHLY before spending any sort of money, especially £4.5k! You've made a good start by posting a question here

2) You need to budget serious amounts for equipment supports. Everyone here will tell you how important these are. Speaker stands: Partington Broadsides or Super Dreadnoughts (you're not going to buy floorstanders, are you ). Anything from HNE or Kudos is worth looking at too. This rack would be ideal: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MakeTrack=true (start price £250).

3) Mains filtration/cables. Touchy subject this. Really depends on the quality of your mains supply both internally (victorian wiring? No thanks!) & externally (pylons, mobile transponders, distance from substation). I use cheap, but effective, Supra Lo-Rad mains cables (about £35 each) and Belkin AV Filters. You should demo power filters thoroughly IMO, as they sometimes maker no difference at all. Also check out Isotek, Isol-8 & Music Line for good value filters.

4) Interconnects. Even touchier subject! For god's sake don't waste money on fancy speaker cable & interconnects. Mark Grant (in the classified forum) makes fine interconnects at sensible prices - check them out. No-one on planet earth (afaik) can reliably tell the difference between budget & premium interconnects, so be very careful about getting sucked-in! QED Qunex 2 is also good vfm imo. Speaker cable? £5 per metre, max! Just try to keep them away from mains cables. Bi-wiring also has limited benefits IMO.

5) Buy used! Hi-fi kit depreciates catastrophically fast. Never pay retail! Total waste of money IMO. Be careful buying used CD players & speakers though. Moving parts, worn laser optics/transports, dented/damaged tweeters etc. will be expensive to repair. I should know .

You will also find that there are just as many fairly clinical sounding tubed amps as there are warm ones...

Very, very true. Just as there are some very warm, rich sounding solid-state amps!!

Originally Posted by nirmal

May I suggest the Shanling CD T-100 cd player, Prima Luna prologue series amp, and Sonus Faber cremona Auditor speakers.
Nirmal

That there is a very nice system!!

Not sure I'd spend £1k on a cd player though - I think you can get some very impressive spinners, albeit with less visual drama, for half that. NAD S500, Meridian 506.24, Audio Analogue Paganini etc. Hell, some DVD players sound great with cd, and you sometimes get SACD & DVDA thrown in too!

Hope this helps,

DT

[Knightshade]

Originally Posted by dynamic turtle

I think we're sort of missing the point here - starting at the wrong place.

1) You mention you're moving house soon? Well, the sensible thing to do is wait until you've moved before deciding on what to buy. Room acoustic characteristics play a huge role in final sound quality. Also, you don't want everything getting bashed-around & dusty before/during/after the move either. This will give you plenty of time to RESEARCH EVERYTHING THOROUGHLY before spending any sort of money, especially £4.5k! You've made a good start by posting a question here

Good advice.

Originally Posted by dynamic turtle

2) You need to budget serious amounts for equipment supports. Everyone here will tell you how important these are. Speaker stands: Partington Broadsides or Super Dreadnoughts (you're not going to buy floorstanders, are you ). Anything from HNE or Kudos is worth looking at too. This rack would be ideal: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MakeTrack=true (start price £250).

Couple of things here, why not floorstanders? If he has a suitable size room good floorstanders are the way to go. If you buy standmounts then stands are a must, equipment rack can come at any time. Stick it on bricks and a piece of wood if you have to. Get yourself the right hi fi first.

Originally Posted by dynamic turtle

3) Mains filtration/cables. Touchy subject this. Really depends on the quality of your mains supply both internally (victorian wiring? No thanks!) & externally (pylons, mobile transponders, distance from substation). I use cheap, but effective, Supra Lo-Rad mains cables (about £35 each) and Belkin AV Filters. You should demo power filters thoroughly IMO, as they sometimes maker no difference at all. Also check out Isotek, Isol-8 & Music Line for good value filters.

A mains filter of some sort (just to protect from spikes etc) is all that's necessary to start with. Cables can come later if you feel you need to.

Originally Posted by dynamic turtle

4) Interconnects. Even touchier subject! For god's sake don't waste money on fancy speaker cable & interconnects. Mark Grant (in the classified forum) makes fine interconnects at sensible prices - check them out. No-one on planet earth (afaik) can reliably tell the difference between budget & premium interconnects, so be very careful about getting sucked-in! QED Qunex 2 is also good vfm imo. Speaker cable? £5 per metre, max! Just try to keep them away from mains cables. Bi-wiring also has limited benefits IMO.

Quite right, although I would add that changing interconnects can make a difference to the sound on some systems. I've never found speaker cable to make any difference. Can't tell the difference between £0.50 per metre and £1000 per metre on any system.

Not saying DT's method is wrong just my priorities would be different.
Choice is yours Grease but you've got some thoughts to chew over now....

[Londondecca]

Originally Posted by dynamic turtle

I think we're sort of missing the point here - starting at the wrong place.

1) You mention you're moving house soon? Well, the sensible thing to do is wait until you've moved before deciding on what to buy. Room acoustic characteristics play a huge role in final sound quality. Also, you don't want everything getting bashed-around & dusty before/during/after the move either. This will give you plenty of time to RESEARCH EVERYTHING THOROUGHLY before spending any sort of money, especially £4.5k! You've made a good start by posting a question here

DT

DT makes an very important observation about room acoustics. Not only is it a critical area for consideration but buying equipment for one house and then moving to another will give you a completely different sound.

Many years ago I had honed my system to give incredible sound quality but when I moved house, the system sounded merely okay no matter what I did

For very nice looking equipment have a look at the Unison Research range but it is worth noting that some of their 'cheaper' amps are stunning ie S2K or Unico and can offer quality that some significantly more expensive amps can only dream about

http://www.unisonresearch.com/valvolari/s2k.asp
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/u...rch/unico.html

You could of course buy several T-amps and put them in a designer box

[music1st]

Easy! Cyrus CD8x, Cyrus 8vs intergrated amp and two Cyrus PSX-R mains boxes. This would give you an award winning musical transparent sound that's not at all fussy. Just add speakers to suit your musical taste.

I first heard Cyrus two months ago. 3 shops, 5 demos and many manufacturers later I settled with Cyrus. Looks great, holds its value, works well together and above all sounds every bit as good as equipment twice the price. Transparent, musical and organic. Push your budget by 500 quid and you could get Linn Ninka's and well matched quality cables. Bargain.

[Grease]

Thanks for the advice fellas, appericated...time to hit the shops then! I have a place called acoustic arts, i went there once to buy a CD player, staff were VERY helpful, otheres weren't.