Lies, damn lies, and statistics

[Roland @ B4]

Please don't take the above heading as an indication that I think anyone here is telling porkies. In fact far from it.

But in the last couple of months we seem to have had a lot of percentage key usage but with no real fact or figures.

10%-20% brighter, quieter, better, blacker, smaller, grayer. Doesn't help anyone unless we have the figures that prove it. If you can't prove it don't put the % key in.

If product A has 100 xyz's and product B has 101 xyz's then we can work it out for our selves. which is better.

Absolutely, especially as 70% of these statistics are subjectively estimated.

[welwynnick]

For what it's worth I think people only use percentages to try and quantify improvements that are observed purely on a subjective basis. It's a bit less ambiguous that saying "a tad" or "a snitch" or "blows it outta the water" or things like that. It would be useful and interesting to have reliable and repeatable measurements to assess what we perceive, but they are probably not at all feasible most of the time. Some people do try to get a bit more scientific on this forum, and others don't appreciate that, which is rather a shame. I know this is one of your bugbears, Roland, but I certainly don't know what the answer is, and I don't think anyone is trying to be misleading.

Cheers, Nick

[Gary Lightfoot]

I have to agree with you Roland.

I often find those ambiguous comments almost useless in real terms (on any forum). That's why I like to see any improvements shown with measurements and facts where possible, and then you have hard evidence to prove any claims one way or the other. There's an awefull lot of BS bandied around sometimes and quite often it can be disregarded with some real measuring, simple maths or known science. It can also help you achieve a better image if you understand what's going on - so you know which way to go with your adjustments. That's my experience anyway - a good image is often in the set-up.

Blacks are blacker?? Really, if that's the case the original blacks weren't black at all were they.

Half the time a simple light meter can help a great deal, and they don't have to be expensive, especially for relative measuring.

It's also very easy to think something is better than something else, but when you go back and compare, you may find it isn't. Placebo often has a hand in those kind of effects (I know because it's happened to me), but real measures prove the reality.

Gary.

[crteaman]

I know for sure that this thread was not aimed at the 't' man,

However, to cover any single percentage comment that I may or may not make in the future here goes my penneth worth,

"NOT EVERYTHING THAT CAN BE COUNTED COUNTS,AND NOT EVERYTHING THAT COUNTS CAN BE COUNTED" (Albert Einstein)

A quote from the great man himself,and ponder it well as it tells us a great deal.

As many of you will have noted I can drop down and get as technical as any other single member on this forum with regards to a broad spectrum of both Audio and Video, sometimes I simply choose not too.

Although there are many very technical members on this forum there are also many who would rather be given an opinion without going into raptures.

Debates between subjectivists and objectivists have always been a point of conflict, some choose to use measurements and believe in them exclusively, whilst others simply refuse to trust them at all.

I like to think I am nicely in the middle, by having a knowledge which allows me to back up anything I might say, but at the same time not trusting pure measurements.

Lets use audio as an example here,no audio components that measure poorly can sound the very best and other components which measure well often sound bad.

Our ears/eyes and brains are the most sensitve instruments we have when it comes to picking up on the incredibly subtle differences in audio/video,many measurable differences are not audible, and many audible differences are not measurable.

How many of us have compared two (or more) audio cables prefering one over the other yet with no graph or measurement at hand?

This is an issue of immense complexity, as i have said before elsewhere,imagine trying to describe how something tastes or smells using a scientific measurement.

How does one directly measure sound quality? some prefer a dry lean sound others a full bodied and rich sound, so do the numbers become unreliable at this point?

Measurements can also be taken under hugely different conditions thus they should be used with caution.
So does this mean I am dead against all measurement, not at all far from it,but when I talk about crt's I am drawing on a lot of years of experience.

Experience is the word here, how does a piano tuner back up the work he carries out for you, what...he just trusts his ears! how can this be, no chart, no measurement??

After tuning hundreds (or thousands ) of piano's he simply knows by prior experience what is correct and what is not.

So how do I know how effective a fan mod is? In this case I backed up my initial impressions by using a decibel meter at a distance of 1 metre.etc etc

When I perform the modifications on my Marquee, you can rest assure I can correlate what I am doing and why...yes I will indeed be able to give you the exact resistor numbers I intend to use on the RGB amplifiers and Video input module etc.

Yes it all gets a little silly when anyone goes into 3.5% or 11% and the like, but as said I like to stand in the middle and be both a subjectivist and objectivist.

Now back to that ultra...

james

[Roland @ B4]

All I'm trying to say is that there have been a lot of quotes from a number of forum members giving comparison figures as a percentage but are not able to substantiate them.
Your piano tuner can't say that after he has finished, that the piano is 25% better. Yet that is what we are getting.
If he added extra keys then we could have x% more, that can be measured.
If he adds and amplifier it can be be louder it can even be measured and then the figures quoted.
What I am complaining about is the equivalent of the man in the audience saying that it is "20%" louder than last nights performance.

Now back to my business of selling projectors too

[Alaric]

Blacks are blacker?? Really, if that's the case the original blacks weren't black at all were they.

Reminds me of the Advatising slogan "New and Improved", if its new, then nothing has gone before it, so how can it be an improvement ???

[Vince M]

Originally Posted by Roland @ B4

All I'm trying to say is that there have been a lot of quotes from a number of forum members giving comparison figures as a percentage but are not able to substantiate them.

Isnt comparitive experience a form of substantiation? If I have seen two different models and I try to convey what I have seen-and try to quantify the differences-so what? Should we be frightened to have a view UNLESS we can definitively prove that view?
We wouldnt be saying much..


Your piano tuner can't say that after he has finished, that the piano is 25% better. Yet that is what we are getting.

What if he did? would you doubt him? would you ask him to prove it on paper even if it sounded better? would you ignore the reality of the situation?

What I am complaining about is the equivalent of the man in the audience saying that it is "20%" louder than last nights performance.

How would you know it wasnt? and anyway its a perceptory statement not meant to be a scientific analysis.I have tried to quantify differences I have noted in % many times-I have also stated its a "feeling".Its trying to paint a picture for folk that are reading of perceived differences based on what I have seen.


Now back to my business of selling projectors too

Do you give a demo or do you hand them a technical data sheet? I guess you let them see with their own eyes eh? What if they asked you if crt "A" was better than crt "B"? Would you refrain from an answer unless you could prove on paper?

I hate to say it, but I think you've missed Roland's point Vince. I don't think his gripe is with subjective comments, I think it is the use of percentage figures etc. I'm inclined to agree with him.

What's the use of saying 'it is 30% quieter' if you have no way of measuring or defining your percentages. Surely it would be better to say 'it is significatly quieter and I don't notice it at all in the quieter parts of movies'. Then at least it is understood what the effect is rather than someone pulling a figure out of the air and then someone else trying to interpret that figure into some sort of meaning.

[Vince M]

Originally Posted by Boy Lex

I hate to say it, but I think you've missed Roland's point Vince. I don't think his gripe is with subjective comments, I think it is the use of percentage figures etc. I'm inclined to agree with him.

What's the use of saying 'it is 30% quieter' if you have no way of measuring or defining your percentages. Surely it would be better to say 'it is significatly quieter and I don't notice it at all in the quieter parts of movies'. Then at least it is understood what the effect is rather than someone pulling a figure out of the air and then someone else trying to interpret that figure into some sort of meaning.

I havent missed his point,my point is IF i feel it is (using your example) significantly quieter,and I feel it is half as loud as the last projector I have used-then why shouldn`t I attempt to quantify it by saying.."I feel it is about 50% quieter"???
Its a perception.As long as one doesnt state it as gospel and makes it clear its his/her opinion-whats the harm?

Isn`t it a stab at trying to quantify the difference-trying to give people a feel for the difference in the absence of complete scientific analysis?

In fact,If I stated;-"Its significantly quieter" and someone asked by how much-Is it wrong -using ones experience-to attempt to quantify? So I then say-about 50% quieter..do I have to suffer complete anality by people saying you cant say that you havent measured it?

If I dont tout as a scientific absolute I am entitle to my views-as all of us are,views I must say that are based on experience and the greatest piece of kit known to man-the eye.

Now lets look at the other side of the coin.

What about all those that spout measurements- mainly read on the AVS forum-on things they have NEVER seen?

Measurement without experience of what you are discussing is useless.

Experience without measurement is a lot more useful.

[Nic Rhodes]

yup, missed the point then

[Vince M]

If the point is you cant quote %`s UNLESS you can substantiate that percentage-then the points wrong for reasons already mentioned.

Let me give you an example.

My opinion is ,my missus rear quarters are 10% larger than when we married..How do I know this? Because of first hand experience of what it was like before-in essence I have a point of comparison..Now do I REALLY know its 10%? No..its my perception based on knowledge-Its an assesment of what I see.
It paints a picture of a perceived difference.
Now saying I measured accurately and it was in fact 9.8%..or 10.1%..so what? I didnt state at the beginning:-"My missus-a technical perspective"..substantiated with graphs.

I said AN OPINION..now why would people doubt me? they may take the view that I know what Im talking about and must be in the ballpark with my opinion based on my knowledge of the situation.

10% in the context of what i`m talking about conveys more inf.than saying "lots".

Thats all..no big deal..

**P.S. This is in no way intended to be derogatory to the missus-as its a bit of a standing joke between us,well standing is the effective word-as i use her to stand in front of the window sideways to achieve total blackout.. (oh..oh ..now im in trouble..)...

[Nic Rhodes]

I thought your misses bum was only 5% bigger than the last time I was in New Romney.....but I digress

I feel all this % looses many of the 'readers' here. As an CRT user of this forum with no axe to grind business wise I have found the last few months 'hard work'. If I find it hard work then I feel others will struggle as well. All the % stuff has turned me off reading about CRTs, I have shelved plans for a 9 inch unit to replace my baby and I am looking at panels again, which have closed the gap on 8 inchers now and will have 9 inchers in their sight next. I am not sure I would be looking at panels if I wasn't board with the % game here, sort of put me off CRTs to be honest, all the claims and counter claims.

[welwynnick]

Nic, I should think you would need a better reason NOT get a 9" CRT than a couple of people pressing the % key on their keyboards in other parts of the country!

Best regards, Nick

[Chris Bellamy]

Yes, indeed, Roland & Gary are quite right, and timely in their comments.

Unmerited hyperbole and lack of balance or tolerance are other unfortunate habits that I find both tiresome and ultimately devaluing of the comments they support and those who use them. Whatever happened to all those lesser qualifiers than "unbelievable" "incredible" "huge" "intolerable" "awesome" etc. It seems that differences often turn out to be unimportantly or infrequently noticeable, only occasionally are modest or frequently noticeable or somewhat distracting, and very occasionally are striking, and of course frequently come at a cost, pecuniary or in some other relevant practical or quality avenue. I am not at all decrying being appropriately picky or sensitive to quality - which is why we are here - but it is sometimes appropriate to remember the wood when howling about a tree or even a hobby horse!

Chris