Arcam 300 and sub behaviour - AVR300 owners experience needed.

[radio]

Hiya,

I have listened to different receivers and narrowed it down to nad 773 and avr300 and so far im leaning more and more towards avr300 and going for a final listen in the same environment for both receivers.

One question i have is for the avr300 users relating to the subwoofer behavior.

- If you set all your speakers L/R/C/SL/SR to large and set subwoofer to present say at a xo frequency of 60hz:
- will the prologic material still sent out to the sub?
- will DD/DTS material still sent out to the sub?

I know there is an option for stereo+sub but just wondering if its possible on other modes.

My findings on nad (maybe i did something wrong) was if all the speakers were set to large and subwoofer to on. The subwoofer did not kick in no matter what the source material was.

thanx in advance

[Crustyloafer]

In Dolby Prologic 2 I woud expect the amp to derive a subwoofer channel, but only for particuarly low frequencies. In Dolby Digital the subwoofer will only be sent information if there is information on the LFE channel to be sent to it.

[GarySargent]

If your speakers are large, you don't get anything sent to the sub in ProLogic modes. You do still get the LFE channel sent to the sub in DD mode.

For this reason I've changed all my speakers to small, but this doesn't seem to have had an adverse effect on quality - just the sub is now on.

[radio]

Originally Posted by GarySargent

If your speakers are large, you don't get anything sent to the sub in ProLogic modes. You do still get the LFE channel sent to the sub in DD mode.

For this reason I've changed all my speakers to small, but this doesn't seem to have had an adverse effect on quality - just the sub is now on.

Thanx for the input.

This is a bit of a unfortunate behavior.. i know on the marantz models the sub gets sent information whether it be a stereo, dolby prologic or dd source.

Maybe there should be an option to enable it just for those who prefer all large speakers + sub for lower frequencies.

I would have preferred this would be the case with the arcam. There might be a good reason for this because i know is the case with the nadt773 as well?

[calgaryjohn]

I agree with Gary, set it to small and put the x-over as low as you can for your speaker set up and it will work great.
John

[radio]

Originally Posted by calgaryjohn

I agree with Gary, set it to small and put the x-over as low as you can for your speaker set up and it will work great.
John

Agreed it would work in small.. but why would it not work in large setting most recievers out there in the pioneer yamaha marantz type fare allow that feature...

how come no large + subwoofer? Is there a reason for it? its just faintly mind boggling

I wonder if its something that can be added on via firmware...

[tvh3ad]

I wondered about this too, and after some experimentation and reading the manual carefully several times, I concluded that it does indeed work properly, but the manual is confusing. Specifically, the manual does NOT say that if you set the speaker size to "Large", the subwoofer stereo modes have no effect, and it also does NOT say that ALL THREE sub/stereo modes override the speaker size setting. Both appear to be true because here's how it actually works:

- If the speaker size is set to "Large", the sub is only used for dedicated LFE material. As far as I can tell, the various subwoofer options have zero effect with this config (despite still being available in the setup menu), and this really does make some sense: if your speaker size is set to "Large", then by definition you do NOT need a subwoofer (except for dedicated LFE material), so Arcam assumes you aren't using one for bass reinforcement and shuts it off. (Does this somehow preserve some small amount of signal integrity by bypassing some routines in the dsp? Only Arcam knows for sure.)

- If the speaker size is set to "Small", the fun begins. In this case, the subwoofer stereo mode settings work as follows: "Large" sends the whole signal to the fronts and kills the sub (yes, it does this even though their size is actually set to "Small", possibly for the parenthetical reason I suggested above) , "Large+Sub" sends the whole signal to the fronts AND the LFE info to the sub (again, it does this even though their size is actually set to "Small", so you get the sub working below the crossover point plus whatever the speakers are capable of reproducing as well, i.e., duplicate information), and "Sub+Sat" divides the signal between the fronts and sub (same behavior as in other digitally-encoded modes with size set to "Small").

So...unless you really do have full-range speakers that can always handle the entire spectrum without sub reinforcement, you set the speaker size to "Small" and then play with the crossover and various sub/stereo modes to get a sound you like.

Hope this helps.

[seanb724]

There was another thread on this, that I just looked for but could not find, that recommends using the main L/R outs and splitting those into a high end input on the sub, especially if you have large fronts. At least that is what I recall, and I'm interested in doing this when I add a sub. I have magnepan mg-i's as my mains and a cc3 as my center. I don't know if it was ever resolved if you would get LFE to the sub this way, though. Anyone know?

/Sean

[roffe]

First, I would like to say that I agree with tvh3ad's great description. This is indeed how it works.

Originally Posted by seanb724

There was another thread on this, that I just looked for but could not find, that recommends using the main L/R outs and splitting those into a high end input on the sub, especially if you have large fronts. At least that is what I recall, and I'm interested in doing this when I add a sub. I have magnepan mg-i's as my mains and a cc3 as my center. I don't know if it was ever resolved if you would get LFE to the sub this way, though. Anyone know?

If you are connecting the sub to the L/R mains out, you do not want to use the sub pre-out. This means you'll have to set the Speaker Sizes->Sub-woofer setting to "None". Speaker Sizes->Front L/R is set to "Large".

So what happens with the LFE signal when you do this? I HOPE it is redirected to the L/R channels, but I don't know this. I think I will have to experiment some more... The best way is to use a calibration disc with dedicated LFE-only tracks and try to play these tracks when fronts are set to Large and Sub is set to None.

[radio]

Thanks for all the input...
I bought the avr300 and have been getting comfortable with the arcam and fiddling with all possible settings and getting the sound fine tuned, i found the answer to my question as i was unhooking my old reciever.

I think the type of bass management i was asking about is not really practised and i think its normal behaviour as you stated.

Somewhile ago when i was tweaking my previous system i decided to use a monoblock to power my centre channel (psb 9c - very bright speaker need to change it soon) as it was not very efficient.

After i was running my monoblock i split the centre preout and fed it to the sub. Hence my dilema with bass when i was auditioning the nad, rotel and arcam.

As the arcam is sitting in its spot and i am enjoying it to the fullest. I have rehooked it up centre to the sub, and the bass seems to be going to the sub while in prologic and or other modes.

P.S i have also set up my stereo to Large+SUB with 50hz crossover and i seem to have achieved a fluidic sound range from speakers to sub.

Originally Posted by tvh3ad

I wondered about this too, and after some experimentation and reading the manual carefully several times, I concluded that it does indeed work properly, but the manual is confusing. Specifically, the manual does NOT say that if you set the speaker size to "Large", the subwoofer stereo modes have no effect, and it also does NOT say that ALL THREE sub/stereo modes override the speaker size setting. Both appear to be true because here's how it actually works:

- If the speaker size is set to "Large", the sub is only used for dedicated LFE material. As far as I can tell, the various subwoofer options have zero effect with this config (despite still being available in the setup menu), and this really does make some sense: if your speaker size is set to "Large", then by definition you do NOT need a subwoofer (except for dedicated LFE material), so Arcam assumes you aren't using one for bass reinforcement and shuts it off. (Does this somehow preserve some small amount of signal integrity by bypassing some routines in the dsp? Only Arcam knows for sure.)

- If the speaker size is set to "Small", the fun begins. In this case, the subwoofer stereo mode settings work as follows: "Large" sends the whole signal to the fronts and kills the sub (yes, it does this even though their size is actually set to "Small", possibly for the parenthetical reason I suggested above) , "Large+Sub" sends the whole signal to the fronts AND the LFE info to the sub (again, it does this even though their size is actually set to "Small", so you get the sub working below the crossover point plus whatever the speakers are capable of reproducing as well, i.e., duplicate information), and "Sub+Sat" divides the signal between the fronts and sub (same behavior as in other digitally-encoded modes with size set to "Small").

So...unless you really do have full-range speakers that can always handle the entire spectrum without sub reinforcement, you set the speaker size to "Small" and then play with the crossover and various sub/stereo modes to get a sound you like.

Hope this helps.

[niceguy235uk]

Not wanting to put you off in anyway but ive had my 300 for about 10months now and i have only just got it set up to my liking.

I have been through several different sub brands and ended up with a REL strata in the corner of my living room. Works like a dream.

The good thing about the REL is the face that you can have high and low level inputs ie high level connected to the front speaker terminals on your 300 and the low level LFE connected to the sub output.

All i can say is practice makes perfect and beleive me.. the end result is worth it.

Happy fiddling!