What is best progressive DVD player

[Mike Prince]

I have a Sony VPH-G70QMG projector with built-in EXB-DS10 line doubler. This displays a standard NTSC (or PAL) signal as 480p (or 576p), which looks pretty good, but I'm looking for better from my DVDs.

What are the best current options? I think I'm looking for 960p at 72Hz from NTSC DVDs containing 24fps movies. I know Cinematrix have an add-on board for the Sony 7700 which will give 960p, but only at 60Hz. I assume this will still suffer from the motion artifacts caused by 3:2 pull down?

Is a PC-based DVD source the only way to go, and can this be configured to avoid 3:2 pull down completely?

I have a second question regarding PAL DVDs. Is there any way to play these at the original movie speed of 24fps, or is this impossible?

Thanks a lot for any help you can give...


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Mike.

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

Mike,

I'm not sure about how you would go about the 24 fps playback of PAL dvd's.

2:3 pulldown is supposed to aid the accurate re-constitution of film based dvd. Reducing de-interlacing artifacts in the process. Perhaps you can explain why you wouldn't want to use it.

As for 960P @ 72HZ. I'm not sure of any DVDpayers than can output this but I'm playing with a new scaler in the shop just now that has 2:3 pulldown for NTSC, 2:2 pulldown for PAL( please don't ask how this works OK)and it has various refresh rate settings for multiple output resolutions.

I think from memory it will do 125hz 960P if your projector is capable of that and 100hz for Quadrupled PAL. I'll check exactly what options are available and post them later if possible.

The NEC6Pgextra I'm using seems best suited to tripling (720P NTSC) but unfortunately it wont go above 60hz refresh at this resolution.

Anyway, its made by VIGATEC and I'll post my observations about its performance on the board soon.

Gordon


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StereoStereo
Intelligent Solutions for Intelligent Homes !

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

Mike,

I am obviously away with the fairies this morning. I've been thinking about the 72 Hz thing and get it now. 24fps relates to (x3) 72Hz...

Still not sure about why you wouldn't want 2:3 pulldown though.

I've been looking at the specs for the Vigatec. It'll do PAL quadrupling at 50/75/100Hz and NTSC quadrupling at 60/90/120Hz.

Hope some of this is useful.

Gordon

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StereoStereo
Intelligent Solutions for Intelligent Homes !

[Ludae]

Originally posted by Gordon, StereoStereo:
Mike,

Still not sure about why you wouldn't want 2:3 pulldown though.

Gordon

Gordon,

Mike does not want the 3:2 (2:3) sequence in his video at all whether its fields or frames. He does want 3:2 detection of cource, in order to remove it prior to de-interlacing but then he, and many others want the option of a 3:3 sequence.

Such outputs as 72Hz NTSC and 75Hz PAL are desired i.e any regular multiple of the original frame rate.

Mike was also asking whether any processor or DVD player can re-establish the original 24fps speed of the source from a 25fps PAL DVD. This would be posssible but not with any consumer or high end equipment I know of, and as it is not a likely requirement in the market, then not destined to exist any time soon.

Such a process wouldn't require anything particularly special in terms of processing, just that it is not an option likely to be in high demand. However, such display technologies as DLP DMD can output 24 or 25fps without pulldown sequences and without flicker. So the ability to output at the native rate via a digital feed perhaps will be a possibility in the future, even if that rate is extracted at the display device.

Displaying without repeat frames reduces motion judder considerably, which was evident from the Digital Cinema presentations I have experienced.

Cheers.

[Ludae]

Originally posted by Mike Prince:

I know Cinematrix have an add-on board for the Sony 7700 which will give 960p, but only at 60Hz. I assume this will still suffer from the motion artifacts caused by 3:2 pull down?

Yes it will. Only motion compensated standards conversion from 24fps to 60fps will remove 3:2 pulldown and deliver judder free motion.

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

Originally posted by Ludae:
Gordon,

Mike does not want the 3:2 (2:3) sequence in his video at all whether its fields or frames. He does want 3:2 detection of cource, in order to remove it prior to de-interlacing but then he, and many others want the option of a 3:3 sequence.

Such outputs as 72Hz NTSC and 75Hz PAL are desired i.e any regular multiple of the original frame rate.

Mike was also asking whether any processor or DVD player can re-establish the original 24fps speed of the source from a 25fps PAL DVD.

However, such display technologies as DLP DMD can output 24 or 25fps without pulldown sequences and without flicker. So the ability to output at the native rate via a digital feed perhaps will be a possibility in the future, even if that rate is extracted at the display device.

Displaying without repeat frames reduces motion judder considerably, which was evident from the Digital Cinema presentations I have experienced.

Cheers.

Thanks for clearing things up. It looks like I just misunderstood what he was asking for.

Vigatec are working on a SDI input for their scaler, Meridian are doing something like this aren't they in conjunction with Snell and Wilcox and I believe that TAW int he states are about to bring out an on board scaler for their "Christie Digital" sourced CRT projectors which is going to have Digital Video inputs.

So, would it be quite a simple process to allow these units to take the raw digital data from a modified DVD player and do what you suggest by re-creating a 3:3 construction and more importantly do you think it's likely.

Gordon




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StereoStereo
Intelligent Solutions for Intelligent Homes !

[Mike Prince]

Originally posted by Ludae:

Displaying without repeat frames reduces motion judder considerably, which was evident from the Digital Cinema presentations I have experienced.

Right. This is what I'm after. Thanks very much to both you and Gordon for your replies. Is there a way to achieve 960p at 72pfs from NTSC DVD containing 24fps movie material? Perhaps using a PC-based system? I regret I know very little as yet about PC-based systems.

Thanks again...

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Mike.

[This message has been edited by Mike Prince (edited 12-11-2000).]

[Ludae]

Originally posted by Mike Prince:
Is there a way to achieve 960p at 72pfs from NTSC DVD containing 24fps movie material? Perhaps using a PC-based system?

Yes, that combination of resolution and frame rate is possible. There may be a processor that will give you that option, but certainly a PC system will allow it.

Best to search and post to the Home Cinema PC section of this forum and to http://www.avsforum.com/ubbcgi/Ultimate.cgi.

Why have you chossen 960p in particular? Are you sure your display can handle it in 16:9 mode without overlaping scan lines?

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

Ludae,

It's a funny thing choosing doubling, tripling or quadrupling.

I've been playing with NEC6'S and 9's as well as a Sony 1251 today, using a variety of scan rates and scalers.

Here's a snipit of what I found. First off let me say that I've always thought that overlapping scan lines would give a worse picture so I'm with you on that front.

These units are all 7" crt's pretending to be 8" ones if you know what I mean........

I found on the 9PG that when I compared tripling to quadrupling with a Focus Enhancements Quadscan the image seemed much better, sharper, 3D on the Quad setting. Yet, I have no doubt that scan lines were overlapping as they were no gaps even at tripling.

Comparing the Quadrupling of the Quadscan to Tripling of a Vigatec resulted in the Tripling on the Vigatec winning.

So, from this I deduce that the Quadrupling capabilities of a Quadscan are better than its Tripling capabilities and that, as tripling with the Vigatec was best, tripling is probably the optimum for this model of projector. Scan lines are very visible on doubling modes.

I have also read of folk doing 1200P on G90's etc and feeling this offered superb performance even although this is undoubtedly going to give overlapping scan lines.

Now, after having gone through all this I suspect that the only way to find out what rate looks best on any projector is to try them all and see.

Gordon.

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StereoStereo
Intelligent Solutions for Intelligent Homes !

[Ludae]

Originally posted by Gordon, StereoStereo:
I found on the 9PG that when I compared tripling to quadrupling with a Focus Enhancements Quadscan the image seemed much better, sharper, 3D on the Quad setting. Yet, I have no doubt that scan lines were overlapping as they were no gaps even at tripling.

Comparing the Quadrupling of the Quadscan to Tripling of a Vigatec resulted in the Tripling on the Vigatec winning.

So, from this I deduce that the Quadrupling capabilities of a Quadscan are better than its Tripling capabilities and that, as tripling with the Vigatec was best, tripling is probably the optimum for this model of projector.

I have also read of folk doing 1200P on G90's etc and feeling this offered superb performance even although this is undoubtedly going to give overlapping scan lines.

The reason that quadrupling may have looked in some respects better or more natural than tripling is most likely down to the filtering in use. The scaling and sharpening filters are probably not particularly sophisticated and probably not adaptive. That is, they produce better results with integer changes in resolution than fractional changes. i.e. 480 to 960 (x2) rather than 480 to 720 (x1.5).

This is where products such as those from Faroudja come into their own, in that they have highly calibrated adaptive processing.

Video processing is as much an art as it is a science and seasoned understanding and experience shows through in products from the likes of Faroudja et al.

As for the G90, I understand it has addressible resolution to 2000 lines although I don't know if its beem spot size is of any use at that output (4:3 mode). I would have thought that 1200p in 16:9 mode would be feasible on the G90 with the scanlines just touching.

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

Ludae

Your reasoning re-Quadscan Quadrupling/Tripling is exactly as I had assumed. My 9PG is capable of 1200p, perhaps I should try it? ;-) Or maybe not.........

I really would like to see a G90 well set up though. I don't think its beam spot is up to doing 1200P without overlapping, but I'd still like to find out.


Do you know of any scalers where you can dial in the required output rates, re horizontal and vertical lines and refresh rate? The DWIN transcanner is supposed to be adaptive in this respect, if only someone imported them to this country.

P.S. What do you do. My background is documented, how about yours.

Blade: Perhaps we should re-name this topic and cut and paste some of the replies. (The ideal scaler)

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StereoStereo
Intelligent Solutions for Intelligent Homes !

[Ludae]

Originally posted by Gordon, StereoStereo:

Do you know of any scalers where you can dial in the required output rates, re horizontal and vertical lines and refresh rate? The DWIN transcanner is supposed to be adaptive in this respect, if only someone imported them to this country.

The Dwin is the obvious choice but I don't know how flexible its frame rate output is. I think it is just 50 and 60Hz. Aspect ratio control is quite good so I've heard. And they have the Transcanner 2 coming out soon but don't know what the improvements are.

There is a dealer for Dwin products in the UK but their prices are rediculous in the extreme!

P.S. What do you do. My background is documented, how about yours.

For a living I signal trains at Bristol Temple Meads station.


[This message has been edited by Ludae (edited 13-11-2000).]

[Mike Prince]

Originally posted by Ludae:
Why have you chossen 960p in particular? Are you sure your display can handle it in 16:9 mode without overlaping scan lines?

I chose 960p simply because it's double the 480 pixel depth of an NTSC DVD image, so creation of the signal should be relatively simple and free of artifacts.

My G70 has 8" CRTs with electro-magnetic focussing, and Sony specify the definition as 1700 x 1200 pixels. I don't know whether a 960p 16:9 signal will display with overlapping scan lines; I'd have to try such a signal and see.

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Mike.

[Ludae]

Originally posted by Mike Prince:

My G70 has 8" CRTs with electro-magnetic focussing, and Sony specify the definition as 1700 x 1200 pixels. I don't know whether a 960p 16:9 signal will display with overlapping scan lines; I'd have to try such a signal and see.

It is worth trying for the reasons outlined in earlier posts re: scaling ability and sharpening filters. Even though according to the spec the G70 can 'only' do 900lines in a 16:9 area of the tube.

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

Ludae,

The very fact that I didn't know there was a DWIN distributor in this country suggests that it's not just their prices potential customers should worry about!


Mike,

My NEC9PG has the same specs as your G70. I'm sure you'll get overlapping scanlines but give it a go anyway.

Gordon


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StereoStereo
Intelligent Solutions for Intelligent Homes !