Blu-Ray / HD-DVD Battleground

[digisocialist]

'Look away now if you have just spent £150 on the latest DVD recorder for Christmas'...says The Sunday Times (13th December).

Excerpts...

Next generation High Definition DVD's is the battleground. Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD.

Blu-Ray disc players are currently on sale in Japan for about £1,500. Besides the major Hollywood Studios, Phillips, Mitsubishi and Hitatchi have endorsed the Sony led format; though Tosh, four other leading Hollywood Studios (Paramount, Universal, Warner, New Line) have agreed to sell on the HD-DVD format. Sony however is to also use Blu-Ray as standard in the PS3 and has also forged an alliance with DELL and HP in appropriation of the Blu-Ray format.

OK - I was literally about to hit the 'BUY' button on the Denon 2910. I had just had a conversation with the wife telling her the benefits of a £500 DVD player (which she frankly thought was ludicrous) and having just tipped the balance in my favour (it was the fact that it plays multi-region that got her as that's pretty much all she wants to know); she then pipes up having read the Sunday Times article and blew me out of the water (seriously embarrased) :blush:

So.... am I seriously waisting £500 on a DVD player if Blu-Ray or HD-DVD is coming soon (I want this player to last a few years) OR do I juts have to live with it? Finally, any good selling points for me to convince the wife would be helpful too :smashin:

[Jules]

I'd holding off any DVD player upgrade for now.

I saw Blu-Ray at the Manchester show in October, and I know I have to have it. Any upgrade now would be very short lived. HD is a different ball game altogether than low / mid priced DVD players.

Anyway, my brothers ancient Toshiba 2109 (worth about £50) is nothing like the 50 times more inferior than the price of my £2500 Denon DVD-A1 would suggest.
In fact, on a normal TV you can hardly tell the difference.

Sure, on a decent projector the differences become more obvious, but honestly.... I think I wasted my money on the Denon.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not sure I could live with a £100 DVD player know, but then I've had my A1 for about 2 years.
Things are very different now, and I'd wait a while!

[digisocialist]

Jules - Thanks for that. I suppose I'm in a slightly different predicament.

1 - I have no DVD Player at all.

2 - I have no CD Player at all.

I have to buy a DVD player anyway otherwise all those DVD's we will no doubt get for x-mas will sit on the shelf! I suppose I'm reluctant to buy a £50 DVD player (I did recently and it broke in a month). My wife's view is, buy 10 cheap players for the same price as the Denon... I know it juts doesn't work like this...

I suppose the obvious question is, when in reality is Blu-Ray or HD-DVD going to hit high street and make this a viable option. If it's 2 years then I have no issue spending £500 on a DVD player... if it were to be 6 months, then this is a different matter.

[Dutch]

Hi,

HD DVD and Blu-ray won't be available in Europe until at least early 2006, so it should be worth buying something like a Pioneer 470 for around £100 to see you through until then.

Steve

[inzaman]

If i was buying a dvd player now i would probably get something like the pio for £100 as well. You can then save the remaining funds to put towards a blu ray or hd dvd player.

[digisocialist]

OMG :eek: Being like most men I'm more likely to see this as an opportunity to spend more on an AV now than save what I would save by not buying a decent DVD player until 2006.

Still confusing. My options now seem to be (assuming £1200 for AV & DVD)
Buy AVR3805 + DVD2910 from Unbeatable for £1200
OR
Don't buy the 2910 and get a £100 DVD player... which might actually for the 1st time in my life put me into the 'High End' market... and put me in with a chance of getting an Arcam AV (or similar)!! (Though whether the DV300 for example is as good as the 3805 I really couldn't say).

It's also been noted several times that your source has to be pretty good. It might be a bit mad to stick a £100 DVD player onto a £1000+ AV.. I' probably being an optomist anyway as it's unlikely I could get the Arcam for £1000 to leave me with money for a budget DVD. If only Arcam broke the 1K bracket!

This get's harder by the day.

[oxygenuk]

Just buy a dvd playuer £70 - 100 for now because in a few years they will be like vhs is at the moment, well maybe not quite but i hope you catch what im mtrying to say ;)

[digisocialist]

I do.. I do..! But am I realistically going to get an Arcam AV for £1000? I suppose this is off topic and belongs in the AV thread.

Still, waiting for HD-DVD/Blu-Ray players to be released in 2006 still doesn't mean they're going to be affordable. I can see now the hype '1st Blu-Ray enabled disc... have yours now for only £1,500!'...

What do we all do with our current DVD collections also... surely there'd still be a market for decent DVD players for existing DVD's. It's interesting because whilst I understand the anology to be made with the VHS/Beetamax war and now the almost redundant VCR; Vinly on the other hand didn't entirley follow the same fate when CD won market share. Quality turntables are still sought after and manufactured/crafted more than ever! I'll never get rid of my Vinyl.

I'm dizzy.

[Seth Gecko]

Really cynical viewpoint is this..........

I love computers (it'll make sense in a sec) and obviously want the latest and greatest. I recently blew my graphics card up so I got a Nvidia 5900. Knowing full well that in a months time it's outdated. Do I buy the 5900 and wait a month, knowing full well that in a months time something better will be announced. BUT surely if I wait 3 months something even BETTER will be out and so on and so on.

DVD has been around ages and the catalogue is huge - but if BluRay and all come out in 2006, it will take years for the catalogue of software to grow. Seeing as technology is a horrible beast that evolves too damn quickly for it's own good, in 2008 there will be something else, then something else again and so on and so on.

Ok maybe i'll get flamed - But then people I know think they should get an Xbox but then go "Ahh but in a years time or so, the Xbox 2 will be out". That as maybe but I'd rather have something NOW and in time upgrade or supplement my existing player/console/whatever with the next big thing. I recently got a Denon 3910 KNOWING full well that BluRay was coming "soon". I also know full well that i've got 1500 or so DVD's that I want to still watch. I'm happy having spent the cash on the Denon and when the format war for the new 2 formats start and slowly show signs of a winner, I'll get a player too. Hell I may get both anyway cos I love technology. But I'll be damned if I'm not going to enjoy what I can right now JUST because something else is coming :)

[digisocialist]

Sadmuppet.. you present well the reality and it is a fair point. I too am the same way with PC. I recently built an Mini-ITX based machine on the VIA Nehemiah MII, knowing full well it was going to be soon outdated.. and Nano is on it's way... plus it didn't really turn out as I had planned (starting point HTPC...end point Mini-ITX with no reall competative MM functionality :eek:

At the end of the day I want the best of every world (don't we all) and I do need a decent enough DVD player to make use of the AV, good surround and to play my CD's on.... I suppose I need to prepare the wife (that's the main obstacle)

[nemo]

Really cynical viewpoint is this..........


Don't think your view is cynical but realistic, Totally agree with you.

[inzaman]

Sadmuppet, you make some valid points.

I am glad that i am not in the market for a dvd player, Digisocialist why dont you go the hcpc route?

Also regarding the amp , personally i would go the cheaper dvd player and get the more expensive amp. I brought an expensive amp two years ago and it is the one thing i have not had the urge to upgrade.

[digisocialist]

Inzaman - a man after my own heart. It's tricky... I'm in that vicous circle. A few months ago when I 1st came on these forums I started off looking at £200 budget for an AV and a DVD was never in the equasion... the more you read the more you are lured!!! :eek:

Now I recognise that you have to spend money to get something half decent (and this is no disrespect to anyone wishing to purchase a £200 AV, afterall even the 3805 is mid range and possibly 'budget' to many on these forums - it's just imo)... I do really like the 3805 (have demo'd the 2805 and thought brilliant) but have since thought going to the 1K barrier is a significant step in the direction I would like to go.. (have friends with Cyrus & Naim CD players and realise the difference.. I'm currently using a £10 Aiwa portable!) So, the dream of hitting that is tantilisingly close but also just a bit too far.

I've thought of this another way. Settle on a proven combo i.e. 3805 + 2910 (which I have researched well, demo'd and liked, plus will be plenty big enough for the Castle speakers) and accept the upgrade game as and when needed.... this afterall is a reality in most area's of life.

[John-D]

I bought a 2910 last month, and i love it. Doubt i'll buy HD-DVD/Blu-ray player until at least a year, maybe two years, into its run.

Dunno if you read on Digi-Tele Text (BBC), that Tosh are bringing out an HD-DVD disc that can play on both normal DVD and HD-DVD players.

Now that's the way to go. Still using your old player till you get a new one, but then the new disc's you have bought will also show HD-DVD on your new HD player.

Beats Blu-ray any day. :thumbsup:

[Rob20]

Really cynical viewpoint is this..........

I love computers (it'll make sense in a sec) and obviously want the latest and greatest. I recently blew my graphics card up so I got a Nvidia 5900. Knowing full well that in a months time it's outdated. Do I buy the 5900 and wait a month, knowing full well that in a months time something better will be announced. BUT surely if I wait 3 months something even BETTER will be out and so on and so on.

DVD has been around ages and the catalogue is huge - but if BluRay and all come out in 2006, it will take years for the catalogue of software to grow. Seeing as technology is a horrible beast that evolves too damn quickly for it's own good, in 2008 there will be something else, then something else again and so on and so on.

Ok maybe i'll get flamed - But then people I know think they should get an Xbox but then go "Ahh but in a years time or so, the Xbox 2 will be out". That as maybe but I'd rather have something NOW and in time upgrade or supplement my existing player/console/whatever with the next big thing. I recently got a Denon 3910 KNOWING full well that BluRay was coming "soon". I also know full well that i've got 1500 or so DVD's that I want to still watch. I'm happy having spent the cash on the Denon and when the format war for the new 2 formats start and slowly show signs of a winner, I'll get a player too. Hell I may get both anyway cos I love technology. But I'll be damned if I'm not going to enjoy what I can right now JUST because something else is coming :)

Just 1 question. How the hell do you find time to watch 1,500 dvds? If you watched 1 a day it'd take 4-5 years to watch every one! :eek: :)

[Rob20]

I bought a 2910 last month, and i love it. Doubt i'll buy HD-DVD/Blu-ray player until at least a year, maybe two years, into its run.

Dunno if you read on Digi-Tele Text (BBC), that Tosh are bringing out an HD-DVD disc that can play on both normal DVD and HD-DVD players.

Now that's the way to go. Still using your old player till you get a new one, but then the new disc's you have bought will also show HD-DVD on your new HD player.

Beats Blu-ray any day. :thumbsup:

But the thing about the hybrid disc (I think) is that you're limited to a single layer for HD-DVD content, or just 15MB. Dual layer standard HD-DVD dissc are 30GB, and dual layer Blu-Ray 54GB. With quad layer 100GB BRay discs proposed for 2007, and 8 layer 200GB in development, it would seem to me that Blu-Ray is infact the better proposition. :)

[digisocialist]

Think thats bad, I knew a guy at my last work place who had in excess of 10,000 LPs. His wife left him and his 3 bed house was mainly filled in every room to the ceiling with boxes of records. He often said that he simply could not fit in listening to half of the LPs he had in the time he had left to live (which was a rather sobering and slightly morbid thought). I offered to take some off his hands for free :) like all the original Beatles, Bowie, Floyd, Hendrix records he had several duplicate copies of! But he was too obsessed. :eek:

[Seth Gecko]

Just 1 question. How the hell do you find time to watch 1,500 dvds? If you watched 1 a day it'd take 4-5 years to watch every one! :eek: :)

It's kinda easy - I bought my first DVD player when they came out in US waaaaaaaaay long ago and have been collecting DVD's ever since. I probably had a player about a year? before they came out over here.

I'm trying to recall exactly when I got my DVD player - 8 or 9 years ago I believe. I was still buying Laserdiscs at the time as well !

[Rob20]

Sorry. What I was thinking was when were you gonna watch them again. Starting from today it would take 4-5 years to rewatch every disc at one a day. You must have £20,000 worth of dvd's. Do you still buy new dvd's. I have 150 and have come to the conclusion that in the last year or so I've been buying a lot of dvds that get watched once than put on the shelf. Personally I'm thinking of joining one of those online unlimited dvd rental places for £10-15 a month. I've worked out I could easily watch 10 dvds a month. £15 a big saving on the £150 it would most likely cost me. I think in the past I've been collecting dvds almost for the sake of it. :rolleyes:

[MartinImber]

BluRay & HD-DVD

Blu Ray soulds like an upgrade to HD-DVD so why bother with the intermediate format!

[Seth Gecko]

Sorry. What I was thinking was when were you gonna watch them again. Starting from today it would take 4-5 years to rewatch every disc at one a day. You must have £20,000 worth of dvd's. Do you still buy new dvd's. I have 150 and have come to the conclusion that in the last year or so I've been buying a lot of dvds that get watched once than put on the shelf. Personally I'm thinking of joining one of those online unlimited dvd rental places for £10-15 a month. I've worked out I could easily watch 10 dvds a month. £15 a big saving on the £150 it would most likely cost me. I think in the past I've been collecting dvds almost for the sake of it. :rolleyes:

Apologies for going off the tangent - Yes I still buy new DVD's and I still watch some of the oldies (Se7en gets a work out every few months). I also rent from Blockbusters (online) for the movies that pique curiosity.

However - as and when BluRay or the next big format comes out - sure I'll upgrade SOME of the DVD's to the newer format (and no, LOTR and Star Wars aren't even on the list !!!) but I'll be happy with the DVD's that I have now - bearing in mind that I can't see how anything other than picture quality will improve. I'm already viewing via HDMI output so I'm happy enough to watch say, Murder One or Finding Nemo as they are - the transfer (for Nemo) is pretty damn good.

[Lepton]

Some time ago, I read that Blu-Ray DVDs and HD-DVDs are too sensitive (like the DVD is more sensitive than the CD) so they will come in a cartridge. If that's true, it means that the respective players will be incompatible with DVD's, so it makes perfect sense to buy a DVD player and a good one at that. Can anyone verify the above?

[expat]

Digisocialist,

What kind of TV or display do you have? What kind of inputs does it allow? You need to take the capabilities and limits of your display into account when deciding on a DVD player. Unless, of course, you're planning to upgrade your display anytime soon...

[vonhosen]

Some time ago, I read that Blu-Ray DVDs and HD-DVDs are too sensitive (like the DVD is more sensitive than the CD) so they will come in a cartridge. If that's true, it means that the respective players will be incompatible with DVD's, so it makes perfect sense to buy a DVD player and a good one at that. Can anyone verify the above?

Blu-Ray etc may well be in a cartridge but that shouldn't stop legacy playback. After all Panasonic players can play DVD-RAM in a cartridge & DVD-Video discs out of one. The cartrdige is just to make the discs less prone to dirt when being handled.

Personally I think they would be silly not to have DVD-Video playback.

[Lepton]

Ok, disregard that. It seems that TDK has made a coating that is good enough to eliminate the need for a cartridge (at least for the Blu-ray). Sorry...

[richjthorpe]

So.... am I seriously waisting £500 on a DVD player if Blu-Ray or HD-DVD is coming soon (I want this player to last a few years) OR do I juts have to live with it? Finally, any good selling points for me to convince the wife would be helpful too :smashin:

Just want to go back to the original arguement of whether to spend £500 now on a 2910 or wait for Blur-Ray/HD-DVD.

Thinking of it this way, and it's already been said, when Blu-Ray/HD-DVD machines enter the frey, they will be very expensive to Joe Publico and it would take a couple of years in order for the costs to lower. By this time, some major company will have made a machine that plays both formats which is better for everyone but this again will be too expensive and will take another year for the price to drop. Given this, Blu-Ray/HD-DVD will be affordable in 2009 !

Then there is the matter of the discs themselves. How much were DVDs in the UK when they first started selling ? £25-£30 ?! I think this will be the mark for the new discs. I know that HD-DVD discs already exist so costs may be cheaper but knowing UK selling tac-tics, they'll bunk the price up no end.

My opinion would be to buy a DVD player now. Which one depends on how bad you want Blu-Ray/HD-DVD. If you are the kind of 'Must have' person, get a cheapish DVD player for now and upgrade to Blu-Ray/HD-DVD when it comes around. If, like me, you don't want to start with the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD until prices come into a less wince inducing price, then buy a decent DVD player now that will last a fair few years.

Either way, I think the Denon 1910 that upscales to 720/1080 would be a great choice for either person for £200 ! Cheap enough when compared to £1500 worth of Blu-Ray/HD-DVD kit and good enough for the other when compared to cheap DVD players (£60) at the moment.

By the way, is there any way of shortening Blu-Ray/HD-DVD ? The B,L,U,-,/,H,D and V keys are wearing out on my keyboard !! :)

Richie.

[ahin4114]

I've also heard about this new coating, so that should eliminate the cartridges. I used to use those with early CD drives and they were a real pain. I've also read that many of the Blu-Ray decks are incorporating dual pickups so you should be able to play back normal DVD on them as well.

I know it's been mentioned elsewhere on this thread, but in order to get any benefit out of these new decks you're going to have to have Hi-def compatible sets. This is turning in to an expensive hobby :)

[digisocialist]

Expat - I own a Sony KLVL23M1 which has SCART, Component, S-Vid & Composite connections. I am therefore limited to what output I can use, unless of course I upgrade as you say, though that is not likely for a while. I wanted the 2910 because it supports HDMI and I do wish to build in some aspect of future proofing. That said, I only have S-Vid cabled to the TV point in my Cinema room so can't even go progressive (I think). I will however be getting a PJ next year and could use HDMI-DVI or HDMI-HDMI if a PJ at a suitable price is available with this connectivity. Again however, I would need to install a HDMI cable as I currently have belden Component cabled to the PJ point.

richjthorpe - The 1910 is an interesting proposition as it only lacks HDMI which is the main reason I wanted the 2910, though this is not something I can make use of now anyway. However I have read the 1910 is fairly bog standard on analogue output, so a step up to the 2910 may improve the output quality (2910 has dual 12bit/216MHzD/A converters vs 1910 54MHz)....and as I'm also after good audio as I'll be doubling up to play CD's on it (can't afford a seperate CD player just yet), this positions the 2910 better. I noted the Samsung HD945 is very reasonably priced and supports HDMI, though if I'm completely honest I think I may be a brand snob and have reservations about mass market brand names ) plus I don't know it's full spec and have no confidence in it's competativeness for audio say vs the Denon.....

Ultimately I am torn between worlds. I am a bit of a traditionalist at heart and ideally would love to stay ANALOGUE (we are good at analogue in the UK)..and if I had my way I would be spending serious cash on a better turntable and analogue amplifcation as audio is important. BUT as I also recognise that I can't escape digital (and that's no bad thing) as I do want Movie entertainment and do find CD's convienient, I have to compromise and buy products for the digital world; herein lies my conflict... if I do have to go digital (and I do) then I want the best I can get for my money. Faithful digital reproduction is a must and I don't wish to compromise something which Philosophically is already a compromise... i.e the digital world. I digress. The reality of course is that I need a DVD player (and WANT a DVD player) now!

:)

[richjthorpe]

richjthorpe - The 1910 is an interesting proposition as it only lacks HDMI which is the main reason I wanted the 2910, though this is not something I can make use of now anyway. However I have read the 1910 is fairly bog standard on analogue output, so a step up to the 2910 may improve the output quality (2910 has dual 12bit/216MHzD/A converters vs 1910 54MHz)....and as I'm also after good audio as I'll be doubling up to play CD's on it (can't afford a seperate CD player just yet), this positions the 2910 better. I noted the Samsung HD945 is very reasonably priced and supports HDMI, though if I'm completely honest I think I may be a brand snob and have reservations about mass market brand names ) plus I don't know it's full spec and have no confidence in it's competativeness for audio say vs the Denon.....

Hmmmmm. But if you buy a 2910 for D/A converters then after a year start using the HDMI connection, you've just forked out more than you need to on technology that is no longer needed (Am I right saying you don't need the D/A converters when using HDMI ?)

Another thing, the 1910 has HDCP compliant DVI which is HDMI without sound in essence. When you connect your DVD player to the PJ when you buy it, the sound will still have to be routed through an AV receiver. With the £300 you save you can buy a Cambridge Audio Azur 640C CD player (£250) and decent interconnects. If you still don't want the 1910, go for something like a Pioneer 470 (£100) using the components and wait until next year when high quality DVD players with HDMI drop in price and you're ready to get a PJ. But then do you upgrade next year or wait a year for when Blu-Ray/HD-DVD comes out.....choices choices !

Only a suggestion mind :)

Richie.

[digisocialist]

Some really good points, especially as I am not completely clear on the whole digital proposition. If it's true that I can get an equally good PQ via DVI, then this is more interesting as the PJ I'm looking at currently is the 4805 which only supports DVI anyway. I suppose the whole HDMI thing is in the equasion because I don't wish to feel I've missed a trick... though it is very unlikely 'll be able to use it. I do have a question about the D/A conversion. If I buy the 3805, will it's D/A conversion take precedence and therefore render the conversion on the DVD redundant (unless bypassing the AV). If so, again I don't really need decent D/A conversion on the DVD.

I know this is off topic also, but I would love someone to explain how progressive works. As you say the 1910 will outpt 720p/1080i via DVI which is the same as the HDMI offering on the 2910... so nothing lost there. The more I look at this logically the more the argument stacks up that getting a lower spec DVD like the 1910 isn't going to be a great loss (in my current situation).

As for Blu-ray, I imagine affordability is not likely until at least 2007. By which time I'll probably be pontificating my seventh upgrade and then worrying about whether to go Blu-Ray (even at a 1k pricepoint) vs some intermediate technology like HSDMI2!

[richjthorpe]

Some really good points, especially as I am not completely clear on the whole digital proposition. If it's true that I can get an equally good PQ via DVI, then this is more interesting as the PJ I'm looking at currently is the 4805 which only supports DVI anyway. I suppose the whole HDMI thing is in the equasion because I don't wish to feel I've missed a trick...

DVI is a way of sending digital video signals the same as HDMI does. The only real bonus of having HDMI is if you connect all your AV sources into an AV receiver that does digital switching. As the cheapest one at the moment costs £1k and there is only 3 companies making them, they're not going to catch on that quickly IMHO ! :)

I do have a question about the D/A conversion. If I buy the 3805, will it's D/A conversion take precedence and therefore render the conversion on the DVD redundant (unless bypassing the AV). If so, again I don't really need decent D/A conversion on the DVD.

I suppose if the DVD player is connected to the AV receiver via a digital coaxial or optical connecter, the D/A converter in the DVD player would be made redundant. If you use the phono connections then the D/A conversion would happen in the DVD player. Have you got a receiver at the moment ?

I know this is off topic also, but I would love someone to explain how progressive works.

I may be wrong on this but the way interlace works is by alternate flicking between lines. For example, PAL has around 550 horizontal lines but will only show 225 in one hit. Prog Scan displays all of the lines at once without the flicker and so produces a smoother picture.

As you say the 1910 will outpt 720p/1080i via DVI which is the same as the HDMI offering on the 2910... so nothing lost there. The more I look at this logically the more the argument stacks up that getting a lower spec DVD like the 1910 isn't going to be a great loss (in my current situation).

I've also read that Panasonics S97 flagship DVD player (£230) has upscaling to 720 and 1080 (Although the website doesn't say it) and has HDMI if you are that worried about missing out.

As for Blu-ray, I imagine affordability is not likely until at least 2007. By which time I'll probably be pontificating my seventh upgrade and then worrying about whether to go Blu-Ray (even at a 1k pricepoint) vs some intermediate technology like HSDMI2!

By that time the missus will have slapped you silly for not buying a DVD player in the first place because you're waiting for the next technology......and the next technology.....and the next t.... :)

Richie.

[digisocialist]

LOL :) Rich you make a sound final point! I'm already being slapped! I don't have an AV at the moment but am very tempted by the Denon 3805. As I won't get my speakers until the new year (Castle Sats) I don't actually need an AV until then. However, the sense of urgency is because the wife is hassling me to get a DVD player to watch Xmas DVD's on and Unbeatable are offering some really good Bundles on the 3805. They're offering the 3805+1910 for £929 and 3805+2910 for £1,199. IF I bought just the AV from Unbeatable for £799 this only leaves me with £400 for a DVD player...therefore wouldn't be able to get the 2910 as there is £75 off if you get the bundle, my wifes limit is £1200 for both! (She wants carpets and sofas and things....)
I could go the other way and try to get an Arcam AVR300 for £1100 (but I think I'd be lucky to) and this of course only leaves me wth £100 for a DVD... always decisions.

As for HDMI you make some good points and it's probably not as necessary as I thought. I could exploit it by taking HDMI>DVI direct to PJ and use analogue for audio into the AV.. but to me this kind of defeats the point.

One of the features that fascinates me is the Pure Direct mode. I can see the sense of this for say playing Vinyl, where a pure Stereo Analogue signal can be passed straight through. However the 2910 supports this which is stated to be a performance improvement for 'audiophiles'. I can't work this out as DVD & SACD are digital sources so your not getting an analogue signal anyway....

I think I need a labotomy - true ignorance must be bliss.

[richjthorpe]

LOL :) Rich you make a sound final point! I'm already being slapped!

If only my wife could see the multitude of decisions I am making regarding the home cinema she would slap me for sure :grin:

When are you going to be getting the castle speakers ? If it's early next year, then I can understand you getting the package. But if it's middle of next year, by the time you set up the receiver 6 months of warranty has passed just sitting in a box. Plus there might be a better package with a better receiver by that time. A couple of questions to ask yourself, will you upgrade to Blu-Ray/HD-DVD when it comes out ? If so, I say get a 1910 for DVI connectivity to the PJ. If not, get a 2910. Either way, I wouldn't buy an AV receiver just yet if you haven't the speakers to do it. There might be a deal on with the castles and 3805 when you want to but them !

As for HDMI you make some good points and it's probably not as necessary as I thought. I could exploit it by taking HDMI>DVI direct to PJ and use analogue for audio into the AV.. but to me this kind of defeats the point.

Personally, I would take the digital (Coaxial/Optical) route from DVD to AV receiver, else you need a phono cable for each suround channel.

One of the features that fascinates me is the Pure Direct mode. I can see the sense of this for say playing Vinyl, where a pure Stereo Analogue signal can be passed straight through. However the 2910 supports this which is stated to be a performance improvement for 'audiophiles'. I can't work this out as DVD & SACD are digital sources so your not getting an analogue signal anyway....

Pure Direct Mode basically switches off anything that isn't need when playing back CDs via analogue so that interference isn't incurred through things like the video signal and the display on the front.

Are you wanting to play SACDs ? The 1910 doesn't play them. If I was an audiophile though I wouldn't use a DVD player to play back CDs, the quality just isn't there yet. The 640C costs £250 and has been rated with CD players at the £500 mark meaning at that level, it should blow most DVD players away.

Ofcourse, these suggestion are completely my own and shouldn't be solely used in any rash purchases :grin:

Richie.

[digisocialist]

Rich - Of course, the reason I've held off the AV bundle is because of the Warranty and the 28d return policy on Unbeatables products. Blu-Ray honsetly doesn't look viable for at least 1-2yrs, so even a £500 DVD player now isn't too bad (can always sell it). Please don't throw other factors into the equasion like CD quality... If I start looking at a CD player as well, I will have to either a) sell all my rare Vinyl (which defeats the point a bit) b) sell all my original Star Wars toys (which I might do anyway) c) re mortgage.

Can you enlighten me on HDCD Decoding.

[richjthorpe]

So, lets get back to the original question. You asked whether you should spend £500 on a DVD player or wait until Blu-Ray/HD-DVD comes. Ironically, instead of asking questions for more information, like a therapy session you've answered your own question !!! :)

"Blu-Ray honsetly doesn't look viable for at least 1-2yrs, so even a £500 DVD player now isn't too bad"

HDCP is copy protection for Hi Def sources. HDMI somes with HDCP as standard (It's in the rules for HDMI) whereas DVI can be either HDCP compliant or not. The problem arises when you try to connect a HDCP compliant DVI DVD player for example to a non-HDCP compliant LCD. It will not work. I'm pretty sure you are ok with HDCP - HDCP or non HDCP - non HDCP

Now, as I was saying about CD players...... :grin:

Richie.

[digisocialist]

Rich - I kind of had some pre concieved ideas about what I wanted to do but of course therapy is what we all need and asking people to support your views, decisions, choices is good for the soul.

Thanks for the HDCP note, but I asked about HDCD Decoding which is a feature of the 2910 and not the 1910 also.

As I have digressed, I may start a new thread entiteled 'what is your dream system'?

[richjthorpe]

Ooops, sorry, I thought it read HDCP !

Not heard of HDCD but a quick look on the web and apparently it stands for High Definition Compatible Digital (Catchy !). It's a 20 bit encoded CD format whereas normal CDs are 16bit. It's said to bring a better soundstage with is 3D like instead of flat 16bit CDs. I think you need to buy CDs with a HDCD format, not sure how widely available these are though. They can also be played back on a normal CD player but only at 16 bit.

Richie.

[digisocialist]

BTW - Started the 'What is your dream system' thread under General Hardware... if you fancy joining in. :)

[MarkE19]

HDCP is copy protection for Hi Def sources.
HDCP is not just for hi Def sources, it works with SD as well. It is in fact 'High bandwidth Digital Copy Protection', the 'HD' in this case does not stand for 'High Definition'.

Mark.

[Iain Shields]

Just to possibly throw another spanner in the works :devil: Do you really want to spend £800-1k on a new amp that you will possibly want to upgrade at the same time as when blu-ray/hd-dvd comes along?

It's just a thought... as you will no doubt want to take advantage of those new lossless (no compression) dolby digital/dts audio streams that will go along with all those lovely hi-def pictures on your favourite movie, something any amp you buy now will not be able to do :mad:

If it was me that was upgrading now, I would personally go with something like a Denon 1910 dvd player along with a Denon 2805 amp... You will still get a good picture on your tv by s-video and when you get your projector (which I'm reading as your next upgrade after this dvd and amp purchase) you will get excellent pictures via the dvi output. Then just run a optical/coaxial cable to the 2805 for all the sounds.

This way you will have more than decent enough home cinema now (the 2805 really is a good amp and the dvi picture on your future projector will keep you more than happy for a good while), and you wont feel too bad about upgrading again 2-3 years down the line as you didn't spend just so much money.

Sorry to mess your head up even more mate :zonked:

Regards,
Iain.

[CLH]

That makes an awful lot of sense and was something I was about to post as well!

[richjthorpe]

HDCP is not just for hi Def sources, it works with SD as well. It is in fact 'High bandwidth Digital Copy Protection', the 'HD' in this case does not stand for 'High Definition'.

Mark.

Yeah, I knew that the HD in HDCP wasn't Hi Def, but I could remember it and thought it just related to Hi Def anyway !

Richie.

[digisocialist]

Iain - It is another interesting proposition. The 2805+1910 would effectively leave me with £500 for a) a turntable upgrade (second hand Gyro SE?) b) a decent CD player....

Thanks for that Iain :god:

[Iain Shields]

...or put it towards your projector so you can get it quicker than you planned... or keep hold the cash and get yourself a nice screen when you get your projector :smashin:

[miker]

my pennies worth
a) software wins the war not hardware.
b) I bought the 2910 and the 2805 and am very happy with all aspects.

All kit depreciates and regret is a waste of time... have fun now not never!! :)

p.s. I was warned off the 3805 because of the remote. Dunno what you guys think of the 3805's remote

Mike :rolleyes:

[AML]

Blu Rays may be more atainable than many of you think.
Sony have guaranteed us that the PS3 will have a blu ray drive.
Even if its not the best quality it will ne a good way to start and it will be cheap. (less than 500)

[Rob20]

Will be interesting if the XBox 2 has HD-DVD as it's storage meadium as has been rumoured.

[Evil Engineer]

Just give it a couple of years and the hardware manufacturers will give in and start making universal Blueray/HD-DVD players just like they did with SACD/DVD-A.

Apart from Sony, of course, who are stupid enough to let pride get in the way of making money.

The consoles might be a nice way to try out the new formats but they're not exactly going to push the boundaries of picture quality. I mean, you wouldn't dream of using a PS2 as a serious DVD player, would you ?

[AML]

Not anymore, but when it first came out it was a cheap way to get a DVD player in the house. Belevie it or not I know people who still use their PS2 as a DVD player. Not every one is concerned with quality. Most just want a cheap and cheerful solution that doesnt require too much shelf space.

Same thing will happen to Blu ray in my opinion. Most will buy a machine like the PS3 to use as a blu ray player and that will be that.

[Hilbert_T]

Hi Guys,

I'm late to the thread but here is my tuppence worth as a Denon 1910 owner.
If you are buying an AV amp don't buy the more expensive 2910. If you connect up via digital you will output Linear PCM bitstream from CD's and will not use any of the on board DAC's so why bother spending the extra money for them on the 2910 if you are not going to uses them. It seems to me that DAC's on a higher end AV amp will probably be superior to those in a DVD player where the priority is video not audio. I have a Yamaha 1400 amp which will output direct 'unprocessed' stereo and a separate set of front HiFi speaker to handle the music, the results are good and it sounds like you could do the same/similar with a 3805.

The picture from the 1910 through DVI is fantastic and if you are buying a PJ soon. you won't need the superior component output of the 2910 either.

So to summarise my advice would be to buy the cheeper 1910 but a more expensive amp. So take the money you've saved with 1910 and invest in the best AV amp you can buy for the budget you have and don't limit yourself to just Denon since with digital outputs the components don't need to 'match'.

Cheers

Hilbert

[Seth Gecko]

The major problem with BR vs HD (I'm not typing it out in full!!!) is that it feels like we may be in for a VHS/Beta war. We didn't REALLY suffer it with DVD - the standard was set and the only hiccup was for writing Ram/-/+ formats.

I'm inclined to agree that ultimately software will win the war and popularity - Beta was the better format (SONY again though!) but VHS won through popularity and software. Software is only generated however on it's sale-ability - so if BR players start at £100 and HD at £200 or more, then "Average Joe Public" will go for cheap - let's be honest here, the most sales for DVD players are for the cheap n cheerful end, whereas your "Hardcore" dedicated purchase goes for the higher end of the scale. You only have to look in Woolies/WH Smith to see the £39 players being sold to the masses :)

So what if Sony use BR in the PS3 and Microsoft use HD in Xbox2 ? I am still not going to watch a movie on either one of them! Let's hope Pioneer develop the dual format machine (Like they did with the LD/DVD combi) IF and only IF both formats thrive.

As to the original question - Surely you should have bought something by now 'cos you KNOW the wife is going to give you a time limit :thumbsup:

[rags]

Are Blue Ray / HDDVD players out in Japan yet ? Also any idea when they will hit the shops here ?

[MarkE19]

The major problem with BR vs HD (I'm not typing it out in full!!!) is that it feels like we may be in for a VHS/Beta war. We didn't REALLY suffer it with DVD - the standard was set and the only hiccup was for writing Ram/-/+ formats.
I think the advantage with the DVD recording formats was that most (newer) DVD players could play either the + or - format, so for most it was not an issue as to which burner to put in the PC or even standalone. But with VHS v Betamax which were unable to play in each others machines due to different shape & size of the tapes and therefore Joe Public had to choose one or the other unless stinking rich enough to afford both. BR & HD will be similar to recordable DVD IMHO with 'universal' machines able to play the lot. I think this will result in both formats surviving (sort of like DVD-A v SACD).

Mark.

[Rob20]

Are Blue Ray / HDDVD players out in Japan yet ? Also any idea when they will hit the shops here ?

The first Sony player was released April 2003 for £2-2.5k. Now £1,500 ish. Can record to 23GB single layer BR discs. Then there's Panasonics BR rec that can record to 50GB dual layer discs that came out mid 2004. Also £1,500. More models should be out this year. Pre-recorded BR discs should be out later this year, 2006 at the latest. !The first BR players should hit the UK in 2006 to coincide with Sky's new hi-def tv service perhaps!?

The whole point about the XBox 2 and PS3 using HD-DVD and Blu-Ray respectively, is that on top of the latest gaming hardware, you also get the ability to watch hi-def films/tv etc. and for a fraction of the cost of a dedicated player. £300 for next gen hardware and hi-def film playback, or over £1,000-1,500 for a BR or HD player.

[Seth Gecko]

The whole point about the XBox 2 and PS3 using HD-DVD and Blu-Ray respectively, is that on top of the latest gaming hardware, you also get the ability to watch hi-def films/tv etc. and for a fraction of the cost of a dedicated player. £300 for next gen hardware and hi-def film playback, or over £1,000-1,500 for a BR or HD player.

Oh I got that - but I'm a snob so wouldn't EVER and I mean EVERRRRRRRRR use them for that purpose (and I have a PS2 and Xbox and never have played a DVD on either!)

[Rob20]

There's no way I'll pay more than say £500 for a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD player. Therefore, it's likely I won't be buying one til 2008/9 at the earliest. The PS3 represents a very cheap way to get BR playback, if only at a very basic level. Still, most people would happily pay £300 for the latest games hardware without BR playback. As with the PS2's/XBox's ability to play cd's and dvd;s, it's a bonus feature of the next gen of hardware to play hi-def media.

[zombie_donkey]

I think an important point is being missed.

To watch HDTV you wil not only have to spend on a new DVD payer but you will also need to spend MORe on a HDTV Television.

The vast majority of plasmas that are flying off the shelves for a few thousand are not HDTV ready and will not be up to the job.

If you are Joe public who spent a couple of months wages on a TV a year ago, will you even entertain Blu ray or HD DVD? Hell no!

HDTV will have a slower take up than DVD due to the fact that a new TV will be needed. That and people will be listening to the doom mongering media all telling them their houses will be worthless in the "next few months"

I will be getting my hands on an X box 2 for sure if it is HDTV Blu DVD compatible or whatever.

[AML]

Its still a long way before we can get our hands on either the PS3 or the XBox 2 never mind a decent BR or HD player made by a company like say Denon.

The first affordable machine will probably be the PS3 and ill get one not only for games but for the chance to have a cheap BR player in the house. Once the formats been out for a while and I see lots of movies and other stuff come out for it, then ill buy a more expensive Denon or Pioneer player.

Not before. Im sure this is what most people will do, so theres no point is geting into arguments since the PS3 is still 2 years away.

[Duffers0]

Another thought is the development of PC installed DVD drives.

Often PC components are ahead of the game.

With most recent PC graphics cards outputing DVI and most sound cards SPdif output, for me the PC provides cost effective solution to home movie.

For what its worth Microsoft have demos of HDWindows Media for player 10 in 720i and 1080i.

Huge file downloads but wow!! :smashin:

Lights up my Iiyama 19inch LCD

[Rob20]

Another thought is the development of PC installed DVD drives.

Often PC components are ahead of the game.

With most recent PC graphics cards outputing DVI and most sound cards SPdif output, for me the PC provides cost effective solution to home movie.

For what its worth Microsoft have demos of HDWindows Media for player 10 in 720i and 1080i.

Huge file downloads but wow!! :smashin:

Lights up my Iiyama 19inch LCD

How comes there not prog scan? :confused:

[Dutch]

How comes there not prog scan? :confused:

They are - 720p and 1080p (although they are only 1440x1080 not full 1920x1080).

Steve

[oxygenuk]

will it be worth upgrading to bluray? apart from space will i see a significant diffrence in picture, obvious we'll hear a nice diffrence in sound, but at the moment i have a philips widescreen so would i see a noticeable diffrence in picture between dvd and br?

[AML]

Blu Ray and HD DVD are about more than just space. The picture will be coded in High Definiton and the sound will also change. DD and DTS will probably still be there but there will also be higher bit rate sound systems. I think Dolby and DTS are working on the next generation of sound.

The extra space is necesary to put all this extra data on the disk.

Extra space will also mean more extras at higher quality without the need for 2 disks.

ie Lord of the Rings Special Extended editions come on 2 disks. Hopefully we will see a high def version of these films on a single disk.

One more thing, to use these new formats you will need an HDCP compatible digital conection on your screen/projector called HDMI or DVI.

[Evil Engineer]

What about regional coding ?

I bet it'll be a lot harder to get round than on DVD !

I could probably cope with two players under the telly (eg. R1 and R2) but that's only a goer if universal BR/HD-DVD players become available.

If there is a full scale format war it could get a bit crowded on the kit rack !

As for computer drives, online region checking anyone ? :(

[AndyR]

I would get yourself off to a dealer like Sevenoaks and try the Denons with a 4805. You'll soon see which is best for you. I'm in the same situation, but think I'll go for the 2910 and then wait for the high def formats to reach that price. I would also like to know which format is going to win - and that wont happen within the next couple of years.

[Rob20]

- Will uk shops sell USA HD-DVD/Blu-Ray players before the formats get released in the UK?
- Did they do this with dvd in 1997?
- If so, how much of a premium was paid?
- Does/has anyone imported AV equipment?

[oxygenuk]

can a bluray or hddvd player be connected via rgb/scart?

[AML]

AS I said B4 oxygen, these new formats need a digital conection to work properly. HDMI or DVI will be needed.

It is also possible to get a high def picture through Component but we cant be sure whats going to happen at this stage.

Scart is a EU only conection not used outside of UK/EU, so dont count on it being a standard thing. Besides, its analog and old.

Picture quality will never be as good as it is through compnent and HDMI/DVI.

If you think that you will be able to conect these new players to your TV which has a scart conection then think again.
Most likely you will need a new TV (plasma, LCD or similar) that supports high definition.

[sticker]

.....................Scart is a EU only conection not used outside of UK/EU,


Nope, its also used in Australia on certain equipment :nono:

[oxygenuk]

AS I said B4 oxygen, these new formats need a digital conection to work properly. HDMI or DVI will be needed.

It is also possible to get a high def picture through Component but we cant be sure whats going to happen at this stage.

Scart is a EU only conection not used outside of UK/EU, so dont count on it being a standard thing. Besides, its analog and old.

Picture quality will never be as good as it is through compnent and HDMI/DVI.

If you think that you will be able to conect these new players to your TV which has a scart conection then think again.
Most likely you will need a new TV (plasma, LCD or similar) that supports high definition.

darn, well ill be staying with dvd for alot more years then :p, how will ps3 connect to the tv? as that is a bluray playback machine too

[Rob20]

With the current consoles, you have a choice of cabling that outputs from the one connection on the back. You don't have different output connections like you have with AV equipment. Current consoles use either svhs, scart or component leads. PS3, XBox 2 etc will most likely add an HDMI lead to that list. I'm would suggest that you'll only be able to watch BR discs via HDMI, but that you'll be able to play PS3 games through any of the others.

Infact, why is it that consoles can have a standard output for all types of cables, but with AV gear you need a seperate scart socket, component outs, svhs outs!? :confused:

[Tejstar]

I imagine the move to HD would be more noticeable for projectors rather than smaller screens. However, the overall investment (new screen & player) required to change probably means I wouldn't be upgrading for a while yet.