downloading movies - Good? Bad?

[Gary D]

i dont want to stir anything up (but you know I know it will) i've read through a few threads lately and i've noticed that a number of people are: downloading movies, watching them, saying how good they are then
pledging to buy the real version when it comes out but not calling themselves pirates!

Question is: is someone a pirate if they dont sell multiple copies at a car boot? is someone a pirate if they make one copy and then let friends and family have it? is someone a pirate if they only watch it themselves?

my personal thoughts are that if you are downloading a movie then your doing something illegal, and you cant really excuse it by saying that you will buy it when it comes out. i often dont have time to go to the pictures and often just cant be bothered after being at work all day. so does that justify downloading a movie, even if i do buy it later on - i'm still denying the film companies revenue.

Any thoughts?


Gary

[sjp1966]

My personal thoughts on this are.

I think it is acceptable if you download the movie to see if you like it and want it in your collection, if you do want it, you buy the proper legal version, and delete the downloaded version, if you dont like it you delete it, end of story.

it is not acceptable to download it and sell on or give to family or friends

technically i suppose no matter which of the above you do, you will still be classed as a `pirate` so you won't escape being pigeon holed as that.

[Azrikam]

I gotta agree with sjp1966. I consider film downloading to be no different than music sampling. You watch something you wouldn't normally pay for, and if you like it then you pay for it. I don't see them losing any sales. They usually either result in no sale, but that person wouldn't have bought the product anyway; or a sale if the product turned out better than expected. The net result is more sales, not less. The people I know who download a lot of films also have the largest collections of DVDs. I don't think that's a coincidence.

Of course, there are another group of people who build collections of downloaded films and have no intention of buying the originals, whatever the price. In my opinion, this is another matter entirely.

Personally, I download very few films. When I do, it ends up being films that I cannot acquire normally. (ie, out of print films / very small films with little or no distribution) In fact, most of my downloads in the past have been TV shows, but now that so many classic shows are getting quality DVD treatment, that's becoming a thing of the past as well.

I honestly don't think DVD sales are being harmed by illegal downloads yet. The picture/sound quality is often inferior, and you lose out on valuable DVD extras. Unlike the music industry, I think DVDs are well priced and good value for money; hence the reason why most people don't feel the need to download.

There will always be a black market in these industries. It's only when a product is priced higher than consumers are willing to pay that the black market becomes a real problem.

Also, let's get this out of the way early. Copyright infringement does not equal theft. Legally, they are two separate and distinct infractions, so unless you are paid by a cartel to spread propaganda, please refrain from calling it so. You wouldn't call someone who receives a parking fine a speeder, so don't call copyright infringers thieves.

[spook]

If you download or copy a movie without paying the owners of that movie then you are a thief,
you can dress it up all you like, but there it is, the truth.
I could say well that's just my opinion, but it also happens to be the law.

I have yet to come across a film studio that has a "try before you buy" policy?

I might sound a tad black and white here, but this fuzzy attitude towards theft is a real button pusher for me.

spook

[Matt Horne]

"The picture/sound quality is often inferior"

Thats the problem in a nutshell... the studios should be very worried.. because other than the cinema cam copies (which are trully awful and not worth the bandwidth).. alot of the time the films you are downloading are the real dvd, just stripped of extras. Elf and Shrek 2 are not out until November but you can already dl the retail dvd's.. you cannot tell me thats not going to hurt their sales.. its six months early and in the case of shrek its still making money in the UK cinema.

[betamac]

I will just said what i said in the shrek 2 thread

i download the retail DVDs to try them out instead of renting them, if i like them i buy them, if i dont i trash them, say what you will but this does not efect the movie studios, many movies i know i want months before releases, Indiana Jones box set, Star wars box set etc) i pre ordered them the second i could, other films i dont know take Man Of Fire (i take it thats what set this thread off) i hardly heard of it and it would of passed me by, now i watched it its the best film i seen this year so a DVD purcharse is 100% certain

So on this occasion they have gained a sale,

To be onest i dont care what i get called "pirate" or whatever i will carry on doing it as it works for me and gets use of my 1MB internet connection

[Simon6776]

Originally Posted by spook

If you download or copy a movie without paying the owners of that movie then you are a thief,
you can dress it up all you like, but there it is, the truth.
I could say well that's just my opinion, but it also happens to be the law.

I have yet to come across a film studio that has a "try before you buy" policy?

I might sound a tad black and white here, but this fuzzy attitude towards theft is a real button pusher for me.

spook

To be pedantic, surely the 'thief' is the person who obtained the material illegally in the first place? As a downloader, you are technically just a 'receiver of stolen goods'.

My view is that I have no real moral issues with downloading, but I never do it, because a) it takes too bloody long, and b), I prefer the real thing, with nice packaging and all the extras, and I don't want my enjoyment of a movie to be spoilt by poor quality.

I also think that, on the question of denying the film companies revenue, you have to ask who's ripping who off, when many of the film companies persist in the practice of releasing multiple DVD versions of the same film, over a period of time, without telling us that a 'Special Edition' version is in the pipeline. This can only be a marketing ploy to entice film fans into buying the same movie two or three times.

[Gary D]

having read through the responses so far i think some members have some very "elastic" morals. And there is alot of "post decisional rationalisation" going on.

I love the idea that its ok to "recieve stolen goods" as long as your not a thief Out of interest do you think the stuff would have been stolen if there was no market for it? after all by downloading you are helping and encouraging that market. or do you think that the uploaders are some kind of robin hood figures protecting the world from the "nasty evil film companies".

this thread was started after i read the Shrek 2 thread. if i want to see Shrek 2 i'll get off my arse and go to the pictures to see it, i wont see a pirate copy just to see if i like it and therefore buy it in 6 months when its released. whatever way you cut it its theft pure and simple. you can dress it up and rationalise it in your own mind whatever way you like but at the end of the day you have some thing without the permission of the owner equaling theft.


Gary

[betamac]

Originally Posted by Garyd

having read through the responses so far i think some members have some very "elastic" morals. And there is alot of "post decisional rationalisation" going on.

I love the idea that its ok to "recieve stolen goods" as long as your not a thief Out of interest do you think the stuff would have been stolen if there was no market for it? after all by downloading you are helping and encouraging that market. or do you think that the uploaders are some kind of robin hood figures protecting the world from the "nasty evil film companies".

this thread was started after i read the Shrek 2 thread. if i want to see Shrek 2 i'll get off my arse and go to the pictures to see it, i wont see a pirate copy just to see if i like it and therefore buy it in 6 months when its released. whatever way you cut it its theft pure and simple. you can dress it up and rationalise it in your own mind whatever way you like but at the end of the day you have some thing without the permission of the owner equaling theft.


Gary

Thats fine i am happy for you, i personly dont want to pay for a movie twice (cinema and then DVD) so i will download it and watch it, whatever works for you,

P.S I have over 60 bought DVDs and i have to say onestly if i had not of downloaded the movies first i would probably have less than 10 DVDs none apart from the box sets which i always knew i was gona buy EG Indiana, Aliens Quad, Star Wars (Cant Wait) theft, piracy or whatever, while there available i will get em to try before i buy

You have to ask though why dont the movie studios spend all this anti piracy money on preventing these DVDs leaking so easily? as without the source no one could download them,

[rOAdeh]

i personally have to agree with sjp1966 and azrikam. i generally only use downloads as a 'try before you buy' service.

unfortunately i guess that could be then said to be hurting the revenue of dvd rental companies. however, for the rare number of times that i do (i think its been twice this year so far and one of those times was when the movie was not available to rent) then it is not worth joining up to a mail order dvd rental place and i'm sure as hell not going to pay the likes of blockbuster £4.50 or something similarly extortionate for a 2 night loan.

Blockbuster imo price themselves out of the market especially nowadays i can go see a film for £1.50 on orange wednesdays in a decent cinema and then use that as a basis to determine if i want to buy the dvd.

[Gary D]

as i said guys there are alot of elastic morals on the forum.


Gary

[Azrikam]

I'll put this in caps and bold, because apparently it's difficult for some of us to grasp:

COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT IS NOT THEFT!!!

You are well within your rights to consider someone a thief, anyone for that matter, but I'm talking the letter of the law here. And the law says they are two different things. Here's just the first three links from a Google search explaining the differences:

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

I'm not arguing the morality of copyright infringement, or saying that copying media isn't wrong, I'm just trying to stop people from classing someone as a thief when they are clearly not in the eyes of the law. The term "thief" is a very evocative one, and that's why certain industries spend millions a year to hammer that into the public consciousness. If you think someone is a thief for downloading a copy of a film, that's fine. But don't believe it because some spokesperson or "paid-for" politician tells you.

Personally, I believe copyright law is a flawed system and needs a serious overhaul. But that's a whole 'nother debate.

[Ger]

apart from the morality side of this, is it not dangerous to download these considering the amount of worms/viruses/trojans............... that are out there. the websites that offer these may not be 100% safe (I have never done it myself).

[spook]

We all get compensated for our time and effort, ie work for wages whichever way you look at it,
if you steal the product of someones time and effort, then you are a thief.

this is however my personal view and not bound by technical jargon one way or the other.

spook

[CrispyXUK]

I dont care about the studios, they spend so much money on high profile actors and overcooked effects.

if they make crap I aint paying to see it.