Only fools and Horses. BAD [Archive]

Confucius

11-05-2004, 6:14 PM

I read it in todays paper too, and find it disgusting that it is now seen fit to mutate entertainment for the sake, once more, of ill-considered political correctness. A pox upon all those who sympathise with these crass actions.

Here's the Times' article in full:

CLASSIC BBC sitcoms are being vetted for racism after viewers complained about offensive language in repeats.

The BBC upheld a viewer complaint about an episode of Only Fools and Horses, first broadcast in 1981, in which Del Boy’s Grandad talks of a “Paki shop”.

The BBC ruled that the “perceived offensiveness” of the word “Paki” had increased significantly over the intervening years”.

Last year the BBC upheld a complaint about the same word used in a repeat of the Only Fools and Horses Christmas special from 1985 but it failed to check other episodes for racist language. Now a vetting team in the BBC’s entertainment department will check episodes of all vintage comedies before repeats.

Don Foster, the Liberal Democrat media spokesman, urged the BBC not to overreact. “Only Fools and Horses is very much reflecting its time,” he said.

The BBC said that Alf Garnett in Till Death Us Do Part would go uncut because he was designed to poke fun at commonplace racist views. A Fawlty Towers episode in which the Major explains the difference between various racist epithets will also not be cut. The Major is an object of ridicule and the scene has been repeated on numerous occasions without complaint. Basil Fawlty’s rant about Germans is also not considered significantly offensive.

Dialogue most vulnerable to removal will be casual use of racist language where it has been used to get a “cheap laugh” and there is no underlying satire on the racist views being expressed. A BBC spokesman said: “The entertainment department will look at each comedy programme to check that the language is appropriate for re-broadcast.”

shaunthedude

11-05-2004, 6:18 PM

yeah, your dead right. Its getting totall out of hand. My young niece came in from nursery the other day singing "Baa baa spotty Sheep have you any wool" i mean COME ON. What the hells going on here. Why at school is it ok to say White board but not black board. the Uk Independence party is getting my vote this year:mad:

bob1

11-05-2004, 6:53 PM

Don't get me started:rolleyes:

Garrett

11-05-2004, 7:06 PM

Originally posted by Confucius
The BBC said that Alf Garnett in Till Death Us Do Part would go uncut because he was designed to poke fun at commonplace racist views. A Fawlty Towers episode in which the Major explains the difference between various racist epithets will also not be cut. The Major is an object of ridicule and the scene has been repeated on numerous occasions without complaint. Basil Fawlty’s rant about Germans is also not considered significantly offensive.
COLOR]
Funnily that episode was given away as a freebie with a news paper.

The sprit of Mary Whitehouse lives on and mutates into something far worse: The PC brigade, or as I call them the though police.

captainH

11-05-2004, 7:27 PM

It's insane isn't it. Shame on the BBC - I bought series 1 of Bottom a while ago and in the episode called "Apocalypse" there is a line:

"thieving b*stard Gyppos - one of them's stolen my wallet"

This is now dubbed as:

"thieving b*stard Yobbos - one of them's stolen my wallet"

The absolute CRAZY thing about this is that if you go to select a chapter the chapter is called

"Thieving Gyppos"

WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON????!!!! I also have the region 1 boxset and it's the same.....:mad:

bob1

11-05-2004, 8:19 PM

:censored: :mad:

nsherin

11-05-2004, 9:25 PM

It's definately got out of hand! What will we have next? You can just imagine a re-release of Snatch all because of the line: 'I f---ing hate Pikeys'.

Spligsey

11-05-2004, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by captainH
It's insane isn't it. Shame on the BBC - I bought series 1 of Bottom a while ago and in the episode called "Apocalypse" there is a line:

"thieving b*stard Gyppos - one of them's stolen my wallet"

This is now dubbed as:

"thieving b*stard Yobbos - one of them's stolen my wallet"

The absolute CRAZY thing about this is that if you go to select a chapter the chapter is called

"Thieving Gyppos"

WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON????!!!! I also have the region 1 boxset and it's the same.....:mad:

:grin: :grin:

That episode is hilarious.....

"Tell me more - old bag"

:grin: :grin:

Adz

EDIT I agree about the censorship on Del Boy.

There's other episodes that use the same word too.

jelly

12-05-2004, 5:25 AM

so does that mean there going to edit the word ni**er or w*g out of roots ??? or blazing saddles THE SHERIFFS A NI**ER<<< CLASS WHICH WILL BE LOST FOREVER IF THESE OVER ZELOUS PRATS GET THEIR WAY

KW1816

12-05-2004, 8:15 AM

The sprit of Mary Whitehouse lives on and mutates into something far worse: The PC brigade, or as I call them the though police.

Why do you call them that ?? Do they need to be kept in a freezer ? :devil: :devil: :grin:

Cheers
Kevin.

shaunthedude

12-05-2004, 8:22 AM

Originally posted by jelly
so does that mean there going to edit the word ni**er or w*g out of roots ??? or blazing saddles THE SHERIFFS A NI**ER<<< CLASS WHICH WILL BE LOST FOREVER IF THESE OVER ZELOUS PRATS GET THEIR WAY

careful when saying the N****r word on here. I nearly got barred for having an argumenrt over the Dambusters DVD when people on here wanted Guy Gibsons dogs name edited out on the film. (The dog was called N****r by the way). Its getting ridiculous now all this carry on over what we can and cant say. I agree that certain words are offensive when used the wrong way but when it comes to films etc or worse still changing history to suite a minority then its all very wrong. I go out of my way now as do most people to make sure Im not politically correct.:mad:

captainH

12-05-2004, 8:36 AM

It's pathetic. I didn't complain when they spray painted "honkey lips" onto the side of Chevy Chase's car in "National Lampoon's Vacation"........that had me rolling on the floor....

miniman

12-05-2004, 8:48 AM

Totally agree with all that has been said, but refuse to add to it as it just pi**es me off!

PoochJD

12-05-2004, 9:01 AM

Shaun, (and anyone else who is interested),

Right! Let's just get this all into perspective folks!

I am the person Shaun is referring to, in his last post, about the name of the dog in "The Dambusters"! I was the one who complained about the thread, as I felt it was inflammatory and treading on very dangerous ground. I just wanted to make that known.

Shaun, you've made it abundantly clear, that as far as you are concerned, it's okay to call anyone, by any derrogatory name, providing it's in the form of entertainment!

You've also made it abundantly clear, from the last sentence in the post directly above this one, that you are someone who really doesn't care if anyone IS offended by certain words or terms. As far as you are concerned, political correctness - in your eyes - is the spawn of the devil!

However, what you seem totally incapable of appreciating, is that there are people in this world - other than yourself - to whom certain words, phrases and sayings DO offend! Regardless of how old a show is, it doesn't always mean that something that may have been acceptable 20 or 50 years ago, is still okay in the 21st century.

Now, I am not some political-correctness freak, here, okay?! I am just an ordinary guy, who likes to treat everyone (regardless of who they are, or where they were born, or what skin colour they are) as equals: decent, normal, average people! I don't single a particular group of people out, and think that it's okay to label them in some kind of derrogatory way. What you find funny, others find offensive!

To some, racism and sexism, and all that kind of thing, is not about having a joke, or poking meaningless fun at someone. In their eyes, you are targetting that person, and belittling them, because they are different to you.

Why?!

Why, in your opinion, is it okay to let certain racial terms continue to flourish, and treat the subject in such a frivolous fashion?! Just because it doesn't offend you, doesn't mean it's alright.

I presume, Shaun, that you've never suffered abuse of any kind, because you were different, huh?! I presume you've never been stopped in a shop, and been accused of shoplifting, just because you were different, and even though their were countless witnesses that could prove you didn't shoplift anything, still find yourself being searched and humiliated in front of on-lookers?!

I presume, you've never had the humiliation of being called derrogatory and offensive names, yelled at you by yobs in cars from across the street, just because they don't like the look of you?!

I presume you've never been stopped by the police, late at night, as you walk home on your own, after a meal out with friends, for no apparent reason, and then being forced to a degrading stop-and-search exam, just because in the police's eyes, you "looked suspicious"?!

I presume, you've never had to deal withbeing physically assaulted either, by both young and old, for no other reason, than they didn't like the look of you?!

And have you ever been assaulted, punched to the ground and kicked, because you ignored someone who was being offensive to you?!

I bet you haven't! So, please...

... kindly stop :censored: around, and trying to play the high-and-mighty card with people, and claim that certain terms don't offend people, okay?!

Your kind of blinkered attitude, helps people like those I have encountered, condone their behaviour! Your anti-PC slant helps enforce political groups like the BNP get a stranglehold on this once great nation of ours!

This whole issue is NOT about whether something is politically correct or not: it's about the fact that certain terms are still considered offensive, and degrading to certain members of society. And for those people, all they want is to be treated and accepted, and to be allowed to live their lives, without fear of prejudice, or intimidation, just because they are different from you!

And don't try to sidestep the issue, by intimating that because I didn't approve of the censorship of old animations, like those from Disney and the Tom & Jerry series, that I am being a hypocrit! I'm not! There's a difference between altering something in a show or film that was genuinely offensive and an attack on a certain section of society, and someone portrayed in a genuine and authentic way, because that is how they would be in real life, e.g. the character of "Mammie" (?) in the T&J cartoons, who always yells "Thomas" in that Southern accent. That's not racism. That's a proper, genuine woman's voice! Hence, there was no need for censorship! But the dog in "The Dambusters" was so-named, for antagonistic purposes, and nothing more!

I don't mind if people are black, white, male, female, short, tall, fat, thin, gay or straight! I don't care if someone has eighteen arms, six legs, and looks like the foulest creature from Hell! As long as that person, treats me with respect and courtesy, then I am happy! And I will always treat them, in the exact same way!

[Name calling removed by Mod]

With apologies to all the Moderators, and to the head of AVForums, Spectre! I know this post is probably going to earn me a temporary ban from posting, but someone has to say something!

Okay, speech over with! :mad: :mad: :mad:

Pooch

Spligsey

12-05-2004, 9:13 AM

*****!

Having read my previous post, i'll confirm that i think the censorship is ********.

(Looked like i agreed with it!)

Adz

shaunthedude

12-05-2004, 9:29 AM

Pooch

what you said above regarding my attitude is bull. I am not racist and do not go out of my way to call people whos skin is a different colour to mine. What got me going in the first place was the Dambusters. That film was not fiction it was fact. And to change the dogs name was wrong altogether. Had it been fiction then fair enough but we cant change history to try and keep some people happy. no matter what we do somone will be upset or offended. Everybody in this world will have been treated unfairly due to there skin colour, size, looks etc etc. why dont we just forget history altogether. lets forget about both world wars in case we upset the germans and Japanese. I could write a list here as long as you like. No matter what you do or change there will always be somone offended. When I was at school there were quite a few coloured lads who got stick. BUT there was just as many spoty kids, fat kids, kids with glasses who got just as much if not more. these days it seems to me that its ok for the spotty kids etc to get stick but if they are coloured all hell breaks loose. Im NOT racist. I am against all these illegal imigrants coming over but thats another story and not racist. Anyway Im not falling out with you over this again. All that boils me is the fact that these days PC is getting way out of control. Its ok for the spotty kids etc to be called but you call a black kid and all hell breaks loose

JohnG

12-05-2004, 9:35 AM

Have to agree with Shaun on the subject of both the Dambusters censorship and this stupid Only Fools And Horses one. Incidents like this (usually caused by the PC Brigade and the Race Relations people) only serve to inflame to situation more in my view. Normal non-racist people get very angry with this sort of meddling and I can see the time when it pushes some of them over the edge and they become racists themselves.
If these people concentrated on the real issues of racism and had the guts to confront the real culprits rather than these easy targets, then something good could be done.

Spligsey

12-05-2004, 10:09 AM

Pooch,

You do me up mate.

You constantly whinge on about the cuts, banning, censorship on just about every film / TV programme ever known & ever created.

Maybe there are people who find the stuff left in offensive!

Cant wait for your next "What's on TV thread"

:boring:

Adz

shaunthedude

12-05-2004, 10:12 AM

EXACTLY. The way you are going on Pooch, you are saying Im racist. I am not. If a white person calls me a name, offends me or whatever then I will retaliate. Just the same as if the person was black. How come we can say jokes about english Irishman and a scotsman and nothing is said. However, you change the irishman to a coloured man and all hell breaks loose. This is what annoys me and im trying to get across to you. John is right in what he said above, this sort of censoring etc and PC is making non racist people racist and is just going to make the situation far worse.

PoochJD

12-05-2004, 10:39 AM

Shaun, Spligsey!

1) You may not be a racist or prejudiced person, Shaun, but the mentality and expressions are there! The very last sentence in one of the posts above, makes that crystal clear!

2) r.e. "The Dambusters". Yes, it's a film based on a true story and event, but calling the dog that particular name is NOT a fact. It was done by the directors, producers and writers, as a way of making the British side look clever and smart! In fact, it's all very sad and pathetic, calling a dog a racial name!

3) I'm not implying that we should change history, but that we don't need to keep claiming that history was right either. Otherwise, we'd all be saying that Hitler was a great man - he wasn't! That Bin Laden's a nice bloke! Not true, either!

4) Despite the saying, history isn't always right! We probably should try (in some respects) forgetting WW1 and WW2. Ditto with Vietnam, The Gulf Crisis, and the current balls-up in Iraq. War is wrong. Period! There will always be a better solution to differences, than getting out our tanks, planes and big guns! And no, I am not a pacifist. I just think that this macho-bulls*it attitude that a lot of people seem to rely on, is a waste of time! We may not be able to change history, but we can learn from it, and if need be, try to put the worst parts behind us! We don't need to keep dredging up all the hatred, the pain, and the suffering, just to make a simple point. War is basically a government's way of playing tit-for-tat, or "mine's bigger than yours"! It's childish, and it's pointless, and it doesn't solve anything!

5) As much as I agree about children of all kinds being bullied, because they were short, or fat, or wore glasses, that still doesn't make it right! However, when was the last time you saw someone being picked-on, as an adult, in the street, by a bunch of three men who should know better, calling another guy "speccy" or "fatty"?! It doesn't happen! Some things can be helped: the kid who's fat, could go on a diet, or have a set of parents whose idea of a healthy meal is something more realistic than a damned McDonalds Chunky Bacon Burger, or whatever the hell they're called now! Someone wearing spectacles, has the option to wear contact lenses. If you're tall, or short, you can often make the differences less noticeable, by the way you dress. But if a child is not born in Britain, or has parents from another country, then that's not something that should be used against them, to make the child feel inferior, or strange, or not British enough! That's the point!

6) The so-called jokes about English, Scottish or Irish people, or any other nation/race/creed, are something I don't find funny, because of the exact point that I am making: that poking fun at people because they are different to someone else, is not on, no matter what the reasons or how unintentionally offensive the humour is meant to be! They're are ways to have a laugh with someone about something, rather than having a laugh AT them! That's the difference, that you don't seem to get! Just because a blacks in America call each other the "N______" word, doesn't make it right for others to do so. The word is considered offensive, and therefore it shouldn't be used as an attack against someone. As far as I know, there isn't a genuinely offensive, and deeply racist term for a white person! Is there an anti-White equivalent of the term "N_______"?! A word that doesn't elude to their religious origins or sexuality?! I can't think of one, but you can easily name several for non-whites!

So why is that, huh?!

Spligsey

I never whinge about censorship or bans. I try to make a valid case for whatever point it is, I am trying to make. I never ever state that something should BE banned or NOT be banned, without backing up what I am saying!

As for your "Cant wait for your next "What's on TV thread" sarcasm, you are a very sad and pathetic little individual, if you think that that's funny, or clever!

I'll be interested to see what the Moderator and Spectre think of this discussion. If the same discussion on heterosexual or homosexual people came up, I think that someone would probably have suspended the thread by now!

Pooch

JohnG

12-05-2004, 10:50 AM

Pooch - it's only you that seems to be deliberately trying to get this thread closed as far as I can see. And if you so much as intimate that I am racist I will sue you.

shaunthedude

12-05-2004, 10:55 AM

pooch

this is getting way out of hand. As for the dambusters dogs name being made up for the film, well that it totall TOSH. Guy Gibsons dog was called N****R, thats FACT. As for other races etc I dont hear any irishmen winging. You say a fat person can go on a diet, a person with glasses can get contact lenses. Well that implies you are saying there is somthing wrong with people wearing glasses and fat people. If a person does not like the colour of there skin they could wear a balaclava couldent they. you are just being daft now. All we are saying is that a small minority in this country go out of thereway to be PC and this gets nornmal peoples backs up and can turn them racist. i dont go around calling black people. i have many as friends and all of them can take a joke and all of them find Blazing Saddles hilarious. Its a small minority that cause the problem. we have a guy at work thats gay. We always take the mick out of him, call him a fat puff and he takes it as a joke like its meant to be taken and he calls us stuff back and we take it as a joke. just chill out

JohnG

12-05-2004, 11:00 AM

Yes that was the real name of the dog

PoochJD

12-05-2004, 11:17 AM

Okay,

1) I am not trying to DELIBERATELY get this thread closed, merely questioning the use of certain words and phrases, and the original issue about whether racism is really just PC people being overly sensitive.

2) JohnG - Unless I actually say, to your face, or in writing that you are a racist, then as far as I am concerned, you are NOT one! So far, you have not demonstrated any behaviour that makes me think you are a racist. Shaun, however, in my opinion, clearly has!

3) I bow down to the superior knowledge that Guy Gibson's dog was really called such a name. However, I still think it's unacceptable, because of the intonation that was meant!

4) I'm NOT implying that fat people or those who wear spectacles are in any way wrong for being who they are. I am merely saying, that - should they wish to - it's easier for them to change the way they appear, than someone who comes from an ethnic background.

5) If you're so-called friend at work, who you keep calling derrogatory terms, is really you're friend, then you wouldn't be calling him what you are doing! You're behaviour is atrocious! And if this is what you think is funny, then you're an even more narrow-minded bigot than I thought you were, and have just amply demonstrated that to everyone on the forum.

How on earth can anyone dare claim: "I'm not prejudiced, but calling a good gay friend of mine a fat poof" is acceptable behaviour, has clearly lost some marbles! Some friend you must be! :mad:

I am more than happy to agree-to-disagree. However, you need to understand that not everyone accepts things in the same light as you do, Shaun! Prejudice, of any kind, is wrong. I'm not saying we should all act like automatons, and not say or write anything, or have a joke, but for :censored: 's sake, make sure it really is a joke that you are making WITH someone, rather than AT them or ABOUT them!

What you find funny, others may not. Know what is and is not accpetable! And stick to it!

Pooch

figrin_dan

12-05-2004, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by jelly
so does that mean there going to edit the word ni**er or w*g out of roots ??? or blazing saddles THE SHERIFFS A NI**ER<<< CLASS WHICH WILL BE LOST FOREVER IF THESE OVER ZELOUS PRATS GET THEIR WAY

Originally posted by Confucius

The BBC said that Alf Garnett in Till Death Us Do Part would go uncut because he was designed to poke fun at commonplace racist views. A Fawlty Towers episode in which the Major explains the difference between various racist epithets will also not be cut. The Major is an object of ridicule and the scene has been repeated on numerous occasions without complaint. Basil Fawlty’s rant about Germans is also not considered significantly offensive.

Sinzer

12-05-2004, 12:24 PM

call him a fat puff and he takes it as a joke

My mum is welsh and she has taken a lot of stick for her welsh accent (which is very slight) and get the usual sheep shagger jokes. She laughs them off in work, but when she gets home it does upset her.

Have you sat down and asked your work colleague if he really appreciates being called a fat poof?

As far the censorship goes, I don't see what all the fuss is about. It doesn't strike me as being particuarly annoying they have dubbed the word **** shop, I don't really care either way. However, I doubt they would use the term these days as it is slightly offensive (many of the shops are run by Indians and British).

Anyone who remotely thinks that these or similar actions would make someone racist needs to rethink their ideologies. If that makes you racist then I would imagine you were slightly racist in the first place.

Everyone has prejudices that is an unfortunate by-product of the human brain and it's system of categorisation. We all make fun of someone different, and I believe anyone who says they don't is a lier (apart from maybe Ghandi :p ).

The problem is not the making fun but the when it stops being fun for that person who is the recipient.

Confucius

12-05-2004, 3:04 PM

My step-father-in-law was OIC (Officer In Charge of) N's grave when he flew Vulcans whilst based at Scampton.

And yes, I have blurred the name out on purpose :rolleyes:

"N*****" was also the codeword used when the Möhne Dam was breached.

alexs2

12-05-2004, 3:05 PM

Originally posted by PoochJD
Shaun, Spligsey!

2) r.e. "The Dambusters". Yes, it's a film based on a true story and event, but calling the dog that particular name is NOT a fact. It was done by the directors, producers and writers, as a way of making the British side look clever and smart! In fact, it's all very sad and pathetic, calling a dog a racial name!

Pooch

Good to see that whatever the connotations attributed to the dog's name now,the name is indeed fact,and had nothing to do with the makers of the "Dambusters" film.....my uncle was also stationed at Scampton,as flight engineer on Vulcans,and all present knew of the dog and his final resting place.

I will have nothing to do with racism in any of it's forms,but there is nothing to be gained by altering history.

Lex

12-05-2004, 3:08 PM

Well as ever the first casualty of war is the truth! :rolleyes: :)

My own opinion was that this thread was doing fine until certain people started throwing unfounded accusations around. The use of any racist terminology was in proper context - i.e. it is perfectly okay to say "the BBC have banned the word ****", it is not okay to say "He/she is a ****" - if we are not allowed to discuss racist issues without being accused of being racist then we really are in trouble.

As far as the Dambusters thread is concerned the facts are being misrepresented... nobody was banned or warned for discussing the issue, but unfortunately the thread crossed a line into actual racist name calling - that is why certain people were banned from the forum...

I think this thread should be allowed to continue. Keep it on topic and everything will be lubbly jubbly :smashin: :clown:

beecee

12-05-2004, 3:26 PM

cant wait for the 'corrected versions' of Bad Boys and Bad boys 2....more silence than talking as i can recall they racially slurr each other throughout!...but i guess that may be acceptable as they are both 'coloured' men..no, yes?

things can just go too far, as i have a few friends whom are coloured and even they say its getting pathetic with political correctness.

PoochJD

12-05-2004, 3:32 PM

Hi Lex,

You said: "If we are not allowed to discuss racist issues without being accused of being racist then we really are in trouble."

I am certainly NOT trying to ban or restrict the discussion of the topic. I just personally felt that some of Shaun's comments were condoning racism as being okay, and a bit of a joke that we should all accept as being a part of life - which it should never be!

I am happen to leave it at that, and formerly apologise for any misconduct I may have made, in the various posts within this thread. I hope the Mods are all okay with this.

:oops:

Pooch

Lex

12-05-2004, 3:44 PM

Originally posted by PoochJD
I just personally felt that some of Shaun's comments were condoning racism as being okay, and a bit of a joke that we should all accept as being a part of life - which it should never be!

Pooch,

I totally agree that racism should never be seen as a joke or something that should be in any way condoned or accepted...

What I don't agree with is that anything Shaun said was "condoning racism" - which statements? Quote them...

shaunthedude

12-05-2004, 3:44 PM

The place where I work is an all male enviroment. We al take the micky out of each other and all have a good laugh. I can assure you my good mate who is gay has a good laugh when we call him that and he always dishes back just as much abuse at us. ALL IN FUN. obvioulsy he is a mate of mine and therfore takes it as a joke. If somone else said it to him he would not. However all I am trying to point out is that this country has gone way too far in trying to be PC. i am not racist but I do have a sense of humour. Anyway as far as racism is concerned you have called me a bigot and told me to get my head from out of my anus. Just as well I aint got the same outlook on all this as you aint it and that I have a sense of humour

valhalla

12-05-2004, 4:07 PM

I totally agree with Pooch on this, as I have joined the thread at this point.

RE: Condoning the use of the word "N****r". If we're all blanking the word out, then you're worried you might offend someone, right? Shaun, if you feel it's okay, why blank the word?

Because you'd be banned otherwise. Because it's deemed offensive.

Confucius

12-05-2004, 4:17 PM

I condone the use of the word '******' in contex - that being the name of Guy Gibson's labrador. There are other times when the word '******' is used to denote or describe something dark, not as an insult directed at an individual.

I also condone the use of the word '****' as in '**** shop', just as I would condone the use of other terms such as yank, brit or jap.

I do NOT deem these to be offensive in the above context.

I DO deem it offensive that such items are edited out of ANY shows from the past because some people find it offensive now.

EDIT:Oh, and I didn't asterisk the 'N' word - the forum software did; so I suggest you get off your high horse valhalla!

Here too is the uncensored picture of the dog owned by Guy Gibson.

JohnG

12-05-2004, 4:23 PM

I always thought that **** was short for Pakistani, like Scot is short for Scotish and Turk short for Turkish etc - but maybe I'm being naive ?

figrin_dan

12-05-2004, 4:23 PM

Originally posted by Confucius
I
I

I

I

I

So you are not offended, apparently some people are. Some people may find your lack of empathy offensive.

Ian J

12-05-2004, 4:26 PM

Originally posted by shaunthedude
Del says the word ****. Out of 1 million people asked about whether this offended them, One person said it did.

Getting back to the original post I find it difficult to believe that one million people were asked as by the law of averages that would include several from this forum.

I also don't believe that only one person of that million objected as that must be statistically impossible

Garrett

12-05-2004, 4:45 PM

Originally posted by JohnG
I always thought that **** was short for Pakistani, like Scot is short for Scotish and Turk short for Turkish etc - but maybe I'm being naive ?

I think they originally thought they did not mind being called it at all, but some people use it as a derisory word so became a no no.
A bit like racist using the English flag as there banner. Although not offensive can have offensive connotations.

So the line in Only Fools and Horses may have been said in innocence, some people could or deliberately take it the wrong way even if it was not meant that way.

Techno

12-05-2004, 5:00 PM

I find it mildly amusing that anybody should think that Guy Gibson so called his dog to antagonise anybody.

When I was a kid in the 70's, my mum was forever knitting, one of her favourite colours was ****** brown.

Like it or not, the word was used to describe a colour for many things other than the colour of one's skin. She would never call 'dark brown' '****** brown' now, but that doesn't change the fact that she didn't and indeed still doesn't have a racist, sizeist, sexist or anything 'ist bone in her body.

Sinzer

12-05-2004, 7:31 PM

jap

As an online games player of a couple of Japanese games (so I come into contact with a lot of them), it is generally recognised that to call them a jap is extremely offensive.

They don't particuarly like it.

I agree that some terms are inoffensive like Brit. I think that censorship does go overboard, but in some cases what you think is ok is not what the recipient of the remark thinks is ok.

Using **** or Jap to describe someone to me seems fairly offensive as they both have negative connotations (both derive from negative sources).

A term such as Brit or Aussie or Kiwi is not really offensive as usually they have been coined by the natives.

shaunthedude

12-05-2004, 9:56 PM

This argument could go on forever. At the end of the day all I meant to say was that the word used in say a tv programme or film in my eyes is fine. To use words like that in anger is not. BUT you could go on for ever making a list of names and words that should not be used. If I was to say "Im going to the Pakis for a pint of milk" i dont mean any harm. If I said "Im going to the f*****g pakis for a pint of milk the so and sos etc" well thats wrong. What about that programe the Kumas at no 10. They say they are going for an English. I didnt hear crys of anger of white english people about it coz we knew it was a joke etc. In the film The defiant ones they use the word n****r for Blacks and Honky for whites. i didnt take offense at that, Same as black people should not see Blazing Saddles as an insult. because its not. it all depends what context a word is used in. Like I said otherwise there would be no words left in the dictionary. thats all i am trying to get across. I am totaly anti racist but unfortunatley its the way the world is. Editing out words from films and tv shows will only get more peoples backs up and make them more racist or turn non racist people towards it etc. these words have been used for hundreds of years and nothing you say or do is going to change this. As said before N****r brown is a description of a colour. Guy Gibsons dog was black hence the name. no harm should be taken from it. Blazing Saddles was set in the late 1800s when the word was used every day. you cant change the word as you would be changing history. Sorry but you cant

Xusia Of Delos

12-05-2004, 11:12 PM

A few points in no particularly order. The key word here is context. Getting back to the original posting, OFAH is very much a product of it's time. It reflects the attitude and mindset of working class traders from SE London of the time. I'm surprised that such language was not used in more episodes. It can be argued that popular TV is a very important form of historical and social documentation (no Galaxy Quest gags please, I'm trying to be serious for once) as they do mirror cultural ideals and behaviour of the time. But it can also be argued that being a still incredibly popular sitcom, people do not view it in such a context therefore may be offended (although I would resist this line of reasoning).

If the latter is the case and the viewing public is incapable of making an objective decision about whether terminology used in a program is valid according to it's context, then the list of material to be cut is going to grow. No more Clive Dunn in Dad's Army referring to fuzzywuzzys. No more Penelope Keith in the Good Life complaining about the kids from the council estate. What about the casual sexism and misogyny shown in The Stone Tapes. I would draw your attention to the recent removal of Mammy Two Feet from the UK release of Tom & Jerry (which has been discussed at length in another thread). I'm sure we could all compile a list or similar material.

It all comes down to politics and lobby groups. Racism towards Asians and Afro Caribbean culture has marginally declined. I'm not claiming perfection, but things are better than they were 25 years ago. But it's still acceptable to be derogatory about homosexuality and asylum seekers.

Political correctness is a disease we contracted from our American cousins and there culture of litigation and repressed collective guilt. It is a shame that we in the UK have fallen victim to it, as I genuinely believe we are a far more mature and inherently tolerant race when we're left to our own devices.

It is though important to consider the feelings of others. By that I mean consider the impact of language and ideas within the framework of a TV program, and how the audience will interpret that. But we should not arbitrarily do so because we are afraid of some bellicose lobby group with its own political agenda. Fear of offence and a desire to please everyone can effectively kill the creative depictions of realism and could end up perpetuating some generic Utopian non reality, that really does no one any favours.

There are lots of terms and language that I don't like. I hear them a lot in films and TV. I often worry about the fact that the irony of there use and the writers satire is being missed. It's an old cliché but remember how Harry Enfields Loadsa Money was adopted and taken to heart by the very group he was try to send up. Yet despite this, if the satire can change someones mind and may be make someone reconsider their attitudes toward others then it has had a positive effect. Censor can often do more damage than good, by incorrectly creating an atmosphere of positive discrimination.

Pooch's post makes it clear that he has been on the receiving end of more discrimination than I or may be a good many others here, ever have. But please consider this. I am white, heterosexual, middle class. During my 36 years I've had beatings co's I was the only kid in my area going to private school. Had trouble in a relationship due to differing religions. Was sexually harassed at work by my line manager who was a woman (believe me this is no joke and no one believes you or see's it is a problem). In recent years I feel marginalise and disenfranchised as a voter, feeling that there is no one or party that wants to seek out my vote and represent my needs. I was told once by a council worker that I should not complain about the crime in the area that I lived in at the time, and that it was people like me that was in fact causing it, by over achieving, being greedy and flaunting my wealth?!! My point is that society is actually creating more and more minority groups rather than integrating them. Therefore people may have a little more understanding ( but not complete, I grant you) than you may credit them for.

shaunthedude

13-05-2004, 8:55 AM

You said it all matey. A point I was going to make but you already have was that there are many groups in society apart from Afro Carribeans and Asians that have to put up with a lot of stick. However, its the 2 groups mentioned above that seem to get priority especially when it comes to words in the english language. Some of the words and sayings that are not PC correct is now getting silly. I could not believe that at my nieces school they are now singing "Baa Baa spotty sheep to the kids" and saying chalk board instead of black board. Now they have even changed that to the pen drawing board called a WHITE board. But I dont notice any groups complaining about it. I can see in about 400 years time how its going to be the white person posting posts like Pooch and the coloured person posting posts like mine!!! I mean come on, this is ridiculous. And to start messing with films that have a historical value is no joke. You have to draw the line somwhere but in this countrys case, it has gone way way too far. Its these minority groups with the loud voice that are making more problems for themselves and the group they represent. POOCH, I made no racist remarks against you at all but you called me a biggot and told me to take my head from out of my anus. If I was racist I would have fired back with some very heavy artillery. If I was racist and you thought I was, you saying that have just lowered yourself to the standard you thought I was at

yatesd2404

13-05-2004, 10:11 AM

Well I have had an interesting 30 mins reading through this thread and there are some really interesting points.

From my point of view there are a number of issues:

1) Going back and changing actual history in films/Tv/books is an exceptionally dangerous thing to do and whilst it might not be a big change it sets a very dangerous precedent.

2) The changes to Tom & Jerry IMHO were also wrong (and I think everyone here actually agrees). When the actress actually used her own voice then that is actually discriminating against her for the way she sounds. I believe that they also changed/cut pieces where Tom fell in coaldust and came out singing "Camp town races".

Pooch, can I ask you what you think of these changes??

Personally, for me I think these have to be seen in context for the time and piece that they are shown in.

3) As for varying types of racism it is difficult if not impossible to distinguish when someone will take offence to a comment about nationality/colour or sexuality. I have alot of Scottish friends who take real offence to comments about Scottish being tight fisted and also alot of Welsh friends that are really offended about sheep jokes. The problem is that any reference to these type of things on TV actually re-inforces stereotypes subconsciously and makes them acceptable.

Did you know that in German when they have a sale on in the shops they will often call it "Scottish week" because of the bargains and money saving implications??

Lots of people here have mentioned that certain AfroCaribean groups are too strong in their protests and that PC is going too far, whilst also asking why is it okay to say Taff. I would say that it is only the extreme work of PC groups that has made racist naming of people of colour taboo and the fact that no-one protests against Taff, Paddy etc., makes them almost acceptable even if they still cause offence.

Saying that there are extremes and renaming black boards or changing non racist nursery rhymes is ludicrous.

4) Getting back on track though, as for OFAH and the use of the word "****", I am normally a firm believer in realism but can see that it is unnecessary in OFAH. Whilst I think a tough gritty drama about inner cities has to show realism and use words that are offensive sometimes to be believeable, I do not think it is necessary in a comedy series that will be shown before the watershed and could promote terms like "**** shop" as being acceptable.

Whilst I can understand the argument that when some people say "****" it is not meant to be offensive unless used in an aggresive manner. But shaunthedude surely you can understand that alot of people have used the word in the past intentionally to cause offense and that as such to Pakistani's the word is now offensive.

When a well loved comedy character like Delboy uses the word it is implying that it is acceptable as the programme doesn't look and feel old enough to be obvious that it comes from another time era.

It will always be difficult as we will always have generations that lived in times when different words/phrases were accepted and were common place as the examples of knitting colours has shown.

Anyway, just my honest opinion.

Dave.

Miniholic

13-05-2004, 4:21 PM

This thread is getting very deep. I am very dissapointed at the attitude that the BBC and other companies are taking. Yes, many people now find some words offensive, and they shouldn't really be used anymore, especially in a comedy. However, it is a crying shame that older programmes should be edited in this way, especially where things are hased on fact (whether appropriate or not as in Dambusters, but that arguement could go on forever).

Whilst I agree that no-one should be subject to any name calling, bullying or other mistreatment beacuse of race/sex/religion or any other reason the PC movement often fuels these arguements and blows things out of all proportion.

I have a mate who is Pakistani, and he refers to himself as a ****, as he views the word in the same context as I would be called a Brit, but some people are horrified by this. And I work with an Indian girl who is not allowed to socialise with us outside work becasue we are white, so she has to lie to her parents if she comes out with us, so it does work both ways.

As for Pooch's comments I can see where he is coming from, but i have to say that i have been offended by some of them, maybe you should follow your own advice and think how you would like to be treated before writing a response, even though I can see that this is a subject that you are passionate about.

I too have been subjected to racist abuse, and it is not a nice thing (on one occasion me and a mate were attacked by a gang of asian kids for using "their" takaway), but being white thankfully, it's not something I have had to deal with as much of some of my friends.

I am a little overweight, and wear glasses, but due to the problem with my eyes am unable to wear contact lenses, and will probably never be thin no matter how hard I try (I eat healthily and go to a gym twice a week), but that doesn't bother me, it is just the attitude of people who think that they can dictate how a person should look that winds me up. Maybe I should dye my ginger hair as well.:grin: Look how often people with ginger hair are poked fun at on TV, but that doesn't seem to get cut out does it, yet it causes offense to many people (and often leads to more winding up from mates as well).

It seems that many people think that you can have a go at someone so long as it isn't racist or sexist, but anything else goes. Afterall, most jokes are at the expense someone, no matter what the subject, and are likeley to cause offence.

As for people being accused of being racist, I certainly can't see any evidence of that from reading this thread, but then again a threadlike this is always going to be thought provoking, and possibly become heated, maybe we should talk politics instead).

At the end of the day, perhaps some of the language used in some older programmes was a mistake, but that mistake has now been made, and changing things now only draws more attention to the fact. I think we should leave the past alone, and instead learn from this and make sure that such mistakes aren't made again.

jelly

13-05-2004, 7:00 PM

A LITTLE OFF TOPIC BUT DID ANYBODY READ ABOUT THE NURSING HOME IN TOWER HAMLETS WHICH IS FOR MUSLIM ONLY did anybody say anything?? NO!!!so what if somebody was a racist does it matter im not after insulting people or annoying mods but prodestants hate cathloics in bethlehem (where jesus was born ) there killing each other every day. where i work there are black people they call us honkys or rednex we call them slaves or spades and at the end of the week we all go to the pub so what im saying is does it matter

shaunthedude

13-05-2004, 7:51 PM

JELLY.... tell Pooch that. i have been trying to all week:lease:

Xusia Of Delos

13-05-2004, 10:14 PM

How Jelly and his work colleagues interact is interesting point. The terms they use with reference to each other are not interpretted as insults, within there social group. But it could be misconstrued by those not familiar with there habits. Do they have social responsibility to consider this or are the free to do whatever they want and to hell with the consequences?

Lenny Henry once said that he used to cringe whenever his friend Frank Bruno use to crack the same old joke about going away on holiday and working on his tan. An innocuous enough joke, but considering Franks popularity and position of roll model, Lenny felt that it was counter productive in someways to social advancement and racial tolerance. The logic being if it is okay for a member of a minority to joke about their colour, then is it not a license for others to do the same?

Stace

13-05-2004, 11:02 PM

Times change...Society Change

I have family of different colours, I have Friends and Collegues of different colours, We all discuss culture, race, religion etc and we certainly ALL joke in one way or another but no-one takes offence.............

People, irrelevant of intelligence, can tell if someone is being offensive/racist/sexist/whatever, Fools and Horses is supposed to be funny, it has light hearted points, it has serious moments, in all the episodes I have seen, it has NEVER come across as intentionally offensive/racist/sexist/whatever!!! If you analyse all the characters within the series, the only one who is overly stereotypical is Delboy (an impression of an 80's wideboy/chancer)

There are many, many, many, many more films/programmes that contain, what can be considered as offensive jokes (Police Academy???) since then, and to be honest if you get offended by them, your looking tooooo deep!!! I knew a guy at work, who spent his time moaning about racism and how white guys will always use race as an attack on minorities.......and he always took the p:censored: s out of 'ginger' sitting opposite!!!

Just my two penneth!!
Stace :grin:

Spligsey

14-05-2004, 1:06 AM

Originally posted by PoochJD
Shaun, Spligsey!

As for your "Cant wait for your next "What's on TV thread" sarcasm, you are a very sad and pathetic little individual, if you think that that's funny, or clever!

Bit like being told you're a ***** footballer by Phil Neville :grin:

I've been dissed by Pooch :rotfl:

The shame of it..................

Get back to your Radio Times my old son.

Adz

figrin_dan

14-05-2004, 6:42 AM

Originally posted by jelly
A LITTLE OFF TOPIC BUT DID ANYBODY READ ABOUT THE NURSING HOME IN TOWER HAMLETS WHICH IS FOR MUSLIM ONLY

don't forget the MOBO awards

Sinzer

14-05-2004, 8:32 AM

don't forget the MOBO awards

What does that have to do with it? People always quote that as being wrong..........

Justin Timberlake
wins Best R&B Act '03

http://www.mobo.net/2003/index.shtml

I don't see how Justin Timberlake has been excluded on the colour of his skin? The MOBO awards are there to celebrate music that has black origins, not to merely award black artists.

A LITTLE OFF TOPIC BUT DID ANYBODY READ ABOUT THE NURSING HOME IN TOWER HAMLETS WHICH IS FOR MUSLIM ONLY did anybody say anything??

Well yes you have....

You can have white muslims? These are people that want to practice their religion with other people of the same religion.

You get christian ONLY institutions.

At least use some kind of analogy that holds some kind of truth.

I am sorry but you guys really cannot support your point with those examples.

I can agree that the PC brigade goes too far with things like Baa Baa Spotty sheep or even changing works of Shakespeare. But we are a multi-cultured society, that does not mean we have to completely integrate.

Those examples only fuel prejudice and as usual originate from a lack of understanding.

figrin_dan

14-05-2004, 11:45 AM

Sorry to go off topic.

Originally posted by Sinzer
I don't see how Justin Timberlake has been excluded on the colour of his skin? The MOBO awards are there to celebrate music that has black origins, not to merely award black artists.

Why though, do we need to celebrate 'music of black origin?'
How about inventions or ideas of black/white origin?
What makes music 'music of black origin'?
Rock and Roll is music of black origin but (white) rock does not get covered in the MOBOs.

To me, music is music and skin colour is skin colour, there is no connection.

Sinzer

14-05-2004, 12:32 PM

I don't mean to go off-topic either, but I feel that if people are to use examples they should be valid.

There are many awards that celebrate music of a certain origin: -

http://www.nammys.com/index.cfm
http://www.bollywoodmusicawards.com/awards/awards1.htm
Spain's Los Premios de Música awards

You could find award for anything, MOBO just has a higher profile.

What in reality is the problem here? There is none. White people are not discriminated against, they are just awards for more defined genres. The same reason why you have Cannes, Oscars, Sundance, they all are supposed to cater towards different genres.

James45

14-05-2004, 12:39 PM

Late arrival on this thread... but editing anything from the past to make the social and politcal context more acceptable is just plan wrong, didn't the nazis do that?! One great thing about unaltered, accurate history is that everyone can learn from it.

And Pooch I can't believe you thought Guy Gibson's dog's name was made up for the film, perhaps a bit of research is needed before you go off on one next time. I believe it was even a fairly common dogs' name at one point.:rtfm:

shaunthedude

14-05-2004, 1:36 PM

it was a fiarly common name for a dog. I had a dog a fews years ago that was black and we called him Sambo. Same as my mates dog thats white, hes called snowy

James45

14-05-2004, 1:50 PM

Originally posted by shaunthedude
I had a dog a fews years ago that was black and we called him Sambo.

Dude... perhaps that was a touch inflammatory for use in the last few years.

shaunthedude

14-05-2004, 1:53 PM

I was brought up with books like "the tale of black sambo" and programmes like the Minstrel show. i had gollywogs for toys etc. I aint changing anything just in case somone finds it offensive. there are pleanty things I find offensive but I dont jump on the bandwagon telling people what they can and cant say

JohnG

14-05-2004, 2:00 PM

I think people have to remember that there are different generations here brought up under totally different conditions. I (being over 40) would probably be thought of by some of you younger chaps as having quite a racist vocabulary - but it's not intentional I can assure you, it's just very hard to change the way you speak/ think when you've been doing it for so long !!

yatesd2404

14-05-2004, 2:02 PM

Sorry, but isn't that a little insensitive. If you know that something is likely to cause offence, then you should respect other peoples feelings.

Especially calling a dog, Sambo, when you are likely to have to shout that name out across public places (or is that just my dogs) is just being rude.

As for comparing calling a dog Snowy cos it is white and Sambo cos it is black is not a good comparison. If your friend called his dog "honky" then I could see the comparison and would think that both was wrong.

The official defn from Websters for Sambo by the way is:

A negro; sometimes, the offspring of a black person and a mulatto; - formerly used colloquially or with humorous intent, but now considered offensive or racist by African-Americans

Sinzer

14-05-2004, 2:05 PM

when you are likely to have to shout that name out across public places

With amusing results no less if done in St Pauls in Bristol..... I can see the lost posters now.....lol

yatesd2404

14-05-2004, 2:06 PM

JohnG, I do agree it is difficult with different generations. I was saying the same recently about the whole Ron Atkinson affair until I actually heard whathe said in teh context he said it.

I know that my grandfather, if he was still alive, would be classed as a racist from his vocabulary now, but I hope would still understand what is offensive in present culture and try and change his choice of words.

But, when someone says that they know somehting is offensive but won't change their words then that is a different subject.

Maybe not offensive, but surely rude and ignorant.

James45

14-05-2004, 2:23 PM

Originally posted by yatesd2404
But, when someone says that they know somehting is offensive but won't change their words then that is a different subject.

Maybe not offensive, but surely rude and ignorant.

Nail... head... hit

Originally posted by shaunthedude
I was brought up with books like "the tale of black sambo" and programmes like the Minstrel show. i had gollywogs for toys etc. I aint changing anything just in case somone finds it offensive. there are pleanty things I find offensive but I dont jump on the bandwagon telling people what they can and cant say

Books, toys, TV programmes should stay the same... but people have the ability to change. Does that mean that someone brought up in the time of lynching in the states should still be allowed to do it?! To be honest I think you lost your argument with that last post by coming across as a bigot.

Anyway I'm off now to buy a goldfish I can call camel-jockey or maybe towelhead:hiya:

figrin_dan

14-05-2004, 2:39 PM

That seems to be the attitude today: "It doesn't bother me, so why should it bother anyone else?"

As was said before, some people just have their heads so far up their own butts that they just WILL NOT try and see things from some other point of view.

shaunthedude

14-05-2004, 3:32 PM

OK, I may have gone a t bit far here as Im getting a bit annoyed. In this country you have to be so bloody careful what you say in case somone gets upset. Soon you will not be able to say anything without upsetting somone. Fair enough certain words should not be used to shout abuse at somone but should be used in a film or where approprate. But things have now gone too far and beyond stupidity. All im trying to say is what has been said before. You should not call somone who is coloured by certain descriptions. However, a film or book is a totally different thing. How can you make a film about the deep south in America during the 1800s without using the word N****R. Thats what im trying to say. Same as in schools. its daft that you have to say chalk board instead of blackboard. things have just gone too far

ps my dog was called Sam but I said Sambo as I was annoyed. sorry

PoochJD

14-05-2004, 4:07 PM

Hi,

Okay, well I've certainly stirred up another hornet's nest, haven't I?! :rotfl:

In all seriousness though, the facts remain:

Shaun - a lot of ethnic minorities DO find some of the words you have used offensive. The fact that you personally do not find them offensive, however, is not the issue. Just because certain degrading terms for white people may not be offensive to them, doesn't make them okay to be used by everyone or by yourself! What you mean in jest, an outsider will take it at face-value, not knowing your intentions or of your character. Hence, calling your work colleague a "fat poof", would - in my eyes - be totally offensive!

As for my ignorance about the dog in "Dambusters", that's my own fault for not checking up on that, and I can only offer my apologies.

I will try and wind this topic up, as best I can.

1) Shaun - if you want to use certain words, phrases and terms, that may be offensive to some, the best bet would be for you to NOT use them. You may also feel that you aren't a bigot, but your verbal actions imply to outsiders (like myself) that you are, because you have openly stated in this very thread that you don't care if you offend others, even if that isn't your intentions.

2) I don't care if people hate me, because I am black. The problem comes, when people make it known to me. We are all, secretly, prejudiced in some ways, against one thing or another. Whether it be about certain types of people, certain types of industry or whatever. Having these feelings is normal. But acting on them, and/or airing them in public is not appropriate. I may not like certain types of people, but I don't make it known to people, because I know it would be offensive. This is not me being politically correct, but about me being sensible and sensitive to other people in the world around me!

3) Political-correctness is a thorny issue. I don't think it's possible to be 100% politically-correct. However, I do think it's possible to at least think before you say or write something. I think it's more frequently known as being "tactful".

4) Racism, as others have stated, is not just about whites attacking blacks. It can affect ayone from any race or religion or background. But, in whatever form it takes, it's about one person trying to say that another is inferior or in some form "less" of a person, and that makes it wrong!

5) Again, as others have stated, the term "Jap" may be short for Japanese, just as Scot or Brit are short for the Scottish or British. However, whilst many Scots and Brits probably wouldn't be overly offended, Japanese people do find the term "Jap" offensive, just as blacks do find the words "****" and "n***er" offensive. I think it started from WW2, and the British and American forces labelling their enemies as "Japs" and going "Jap-bashing"!

The word "****" may be short for someone from Pakistan, but it is used by a lot of people to enforce a stereotype that all black and Asian people are somehow lesser individuals, and need to be put-down, and kept in their place, like slaves. The term "****-shop" is therefore abhorrent and offensive! So even id Del-boy in OFAH doesn't mean it to be an offensive term, it is, by its very nature, as it's enforcing a negative myth, and demonising black people who just happen to run a shop!

Being tactful about how you label someone or a set of people, is the sensible thing to do. That doesn't make you some kind of politically-correct individual who should be on the receiving end of a ton of flak!

Also, I should point out, that labelling anyone in a certain way, is and can be, very damaging! You may not mean it to be damaging, but that doesn't mean to say it's okay.

Pooch

MartinImber

14-05-2004, 5:44 PM

The term "****-shop" is therefore abhorrent and offensive!

As one shop I know says - "we're not Pakistani we're Indian" and they are nice people and well integrated (ie speak English mainly)

I don't care if people hate me, because I am black.

On the Internet there is no colour - you are a poster and fellow forum member.

I don't care what colour someone is - do I like them or not is unconnected.

JohnG

15-05-2004, 7:25 AM

Pooch - a very good and informative summing up there I think.
I was speaking to my mate last night and we're both sure that the N word was never really used when we were kids as an offensive term. I'm sure (and so is he) that we'd never really considered the word until we saw Blazing Saddles at the cinema - although I may be wrong. Were I live (the same place as I grew up and when to school) there was never a big black/asian population - during my 7 years at Comprehensive school there was only 1 black girl and no asian pupils at all.
Both my parents and my mates mother still use the term N word brown to describe a colour and they definately do not deliberately mean anything by that. I wonder if the N word has crept into our language via America ?

lovemovies

15-05-2004, 12:43 PM

Well. I think everyone should just chill.

Some people get offended by certain words while others don't.

Some people like black, others like white.

Some people like curry, others can't stand it.

Some people believe in god, others think religion is bull****.

Live with it. It's life. YOU CAN'T PLEASE EVERYONE ALL OF THE TIME.

If a program or films language offends me I simply won't watch it again. I won't demand that the makers change it to suit my likes and dislikes.

What i'm trying to say is there are billions of people on this planet. Some get offended by certain words or images while others don't. You can meet someone that finds everything you say funny, while another person thinks you are a moron because of your choice of words.

mikeq

17-05-2004, 1:22 PM

The problem with this type of censorship is where do you stop.

Should we completely ban "Open All Hours" because of Ronnie Barkers stammer/stutter, I'm sure it will offend someone. etc etc Why does it seem more acceptable to allow this and not words like 'pakishop' or going for a 'chinky'.

The use of 'pakishop' in OFAH for the time it was created is very relevant, it is certainly a word that was used frequently when I was a kid and probably most of you the same age have used it also. No I do not think it is acceptable to use it today but at the time it was not said with any bad intentions.

Again when I was a kid we used to get a 'black man' (chocolate marshmallow wafer thing with ice cream in the middle) from the ice cream van, totally unacceptable today but at the time it wasn't said with any racist intent.

Regards
Mike (the Ginger haired Jock)

PoochJD

17-05-2004, 1:47 PM

Mike,

You said: "Again when I was a kid we used to get a 'black man' (chocolate marshmallow wafer thing with ice cream in the middle) from the ice cream van, totally unacceptable today but at the time it wasn't said with any racist intent."

Whilst that may have been true, that such an ice cream existed, the very fact that it was called a "Black Man" is proof that it was a racist name! Why else would you call a product that name, and then try to con the public that "We don't mean anything offensive by it."

Um, sorry, but that's just total rubbish! If you're calling a product by a certain label, and if that label is more commonly associated with a racial or derrogatory term, then by the very nature of that association, it is going to be seen as an offensive name.

You can't label something as a "Black Man" when the reason you are calling the product that name, is because it is designed to be associated with whatever that name represents. Same as the words "****" or "wog" or "n****r" are representations - or rather, misrepresentations - of where they stem from.

The Robinson's marmalade character of the "Golly" was so-called, because it was a characterisation of what some people thought a black person (of that time and era) looked like, in the form of a doll. The very fact, it's meant to be a characterisation, proves that it was a racist creation!

I'm sorry, but some people seem to be deluding themselves here, as to what is or is not racism! You couldn't (for example) create an ice-lolly in the shape of a Jewish dradle (sp?) and not expect people to draw comparisons with that particular culture of people, and have the company claim "We never meant to be offensive to the Jewish culture."

Ditto, Shaun shouldn't be going around calling one of his work colleagues a "fat poof", if the guy happens to be of larger build and gay, and then claim "I don't mean anything prejudicial by that.", because there's no other reasons that that person would be labelled a "fat poof" if he weren't on the larger side and homosexual.

Just my $18 worth!

Pooch

CrispyXUK

17-05-2004, 1:58 PM

I'm really looking forward to the PC version of "Full Metal Jacket" :angry:

Garrett

17-05-2004, 2:41 PM

The Robinson's marmalade character of the "Golly" was so-called, because it was a characterisation of what some people thought a black person (of that time and era) looked like, in the form of a doll. The very fact, it's meant to be a characterisation, proves that it was a racist creation!

By the same token can’t Ronald McDonald be considered racist to people from Scotland?

D J Fryer

17-05-2004, 3:22 PM

Just sat and read this thread - I personally find use of the word **** offensive. I've been called it plenty of times as a kid and even still on sunday mornings playing footie by opposition players (with their children/grandchildren supporting on the sidelines - they must be so proud......;) ). I'm not, technically, Pakistani so some would argue that I shouldn't be offended. I do get offended.

Should it be taken out of OFAH or changed? Probably not, its a representation of what was used by many people at the time. I don't really find that offensive - it makes me chringe if I am honest - its embarssing to think that once upon a time people found use of the word acceptable. Would I want my kid to watch it and repeat the word? No.

PoochJD

17-05-2004, 3:46 PM

Afternoon,

By the same token can’t Ronald McDonald be considered racist to people from Scotland?

I guess that depends on what the original intention of the person who created the character of R McD was intending his creation to be representative of.

If the creator's intention was to poke fun at Scottish people, then yes, it would be racist. If it wasn't, then the answer would obviously be "no".

Oh, and whilst I remember: how come so many sayings and children's playground rhymes are racially suspect too? e.g.
- That's like the pot calling the kettle black. (What has calling a kettle black, got to do with someone making a hypocritical comment?)
- Eeeny, meeny, minee, mo. Catch a n****r by its toe.
If it squeals, let it go. Eeeny, meeny, minee, mo.

There's probably a lot of others as well, bu these two come to mind the most.

Pooch

figrin_dan

17-05-2004, 3:51 PM

- That's like the pot calling the kettle black. (What has calling a kettle black, got to do with someone making a hypocritical comment?)

I believe the pot is supposed to be black.

Garrett

17-05-2004, 5:19 PM

Oh, and whilst I remember: how come so many sayings and children's playground rhymes are racially suspect too? e.g.
- That's like the pot calling the kettle black. (What has calling a kettle black, got to do with someone making a hypocritical comment?)

Pooch

Probably when they made pots out of cast iron, if you remember them, they were very black on the bottoms.

A bit like in the bible when the person says ‘take the plank out of your eye before attempting to take the splint out of mine’.

Zone

17-05-2004, 5:22 PM

Cervantes' 'Don Quixote'.
"Said the frying-pan to the kettle, Get away, blackbreech.'
You chide me for uttering proverbs, and you string them in couples
yourself!
Whether or not that has racist intent I leave it up to you to judge.
Personally I don't believe it has.

shaunthedude

17-05-2004, 5:48 PM

prime example...Ronald McDonald is a white clown with a scottish name. Nothing at all racist is meant by him and Nobody has kicked up a fuss about it. HOWEVER. If Ronald was a BLACK clown all hell would have broken loose by now. Same as that lolly that was mentioned. If the lolly was out today and called a white man nothing would be said. Even if it was called somthing like a fat white man, nowt would be said Thats my point

Garrett

17-05-2004, 6:05 PM

Is this thread going :offtopic: it in now a thread about racism rather than the editing of of a DVD due to some one in all probability (probably have been cut in the first place if it was meant that way) saying it in all innocents going to the **** shop. Like some would say going for an Indian or a Chinese.
Grandfather did not come over as a racist did he un-like Alf Garnet?
So I do not think it should have been edited.

Zone

17-05-2004, 6:14 PM

I don't think it has gone or is going off topic Garrett.
So far it's been a very interesting discussion into not only censorship/racism but also people's perception's and belief's on the subject.
Let it run...

Garrett

17-05-2004, 6:35 PM

Couldn’t do anything anyway Zone I’m not a mod on here. I also like to give a bit of latitude; I did not want the thread closing for going of topic.

Zone

17-05-2004, 6:38 PM

Fair do's :thumbsup:

mikeq

17-05-2004, 7:44 PM

PoochJD at 5 years old I had no idea if the name of the ice cream was about a black person. What my dad used to say was go to the van a get a black man but ask him to wash it first, so to me it was about a dirty(black) person not anyone of a different skin colour. I'm not a racist now and I certainly wasn't a racist at 5, neither is/was my dad.

My point was that it was an acceptable phrase back then but I realise it is not now regardless of what it means.

Now the pot and kettle thing is just being silly, it is not and never has been about race. It is about 2 cooking utensils both used on a hob which gradually discolour over time through use on a flame (obviously in the days before electric kettles).

"If the creator's intention was to poke fun at Scottish people, then yes, it would be racist. If it wasn't, then the answer would obviously be "no"."

Do you think the golly creator intended it to be racist?

Whilst we are on that subject perhaps the "Jimmy Hat" can be considered racist

Sinzer

17-05-2004, 8:27 PM

Yes, Pot calling the kettle black is because when you would heat up iron pots and kettles over an open flame they go black.

On the ironic side Pooch it shows a little of your prejudice as because you didn't know that pots and kettles go black when heated over open flame, you assumed it was a slur against black people.

This is essentially where most racism comes from and that is misunderstanding. It is very difficult to change beliefs, especially when a lot of people don;t seem to want to understand.

I just consider myself lucky that I am a white middleclass male, it currently seems to be our golden era :)

Soon to be eroded away by the females in this world :p

JohnG

17-05-2004, 8:29 PM

Pooch - you are either deliberately trying to wind us all up or you have been seriously misinformed about that saying.
And the eenie meenie minie thingy was always "catch a baby by the toe" were I grew up.

Ryan

17-05-2004, 9:03 PM

Sorry for having joined this thread late but i'd like to add my tuppence worth.
First of all i'd like to say I have been called a **** all my life. As a kid it riled me but the people who did it were bullies and wanted to put me down. Now as an older person (although not that old) it makes me smile when people call me that. Why? you might ask. Because I am from Trinidad, the otherside of the world from where they think i'm from and I smile because they are ignorant.

Anyone remember Love thy neighbour? What a classic show.
The white guy calling the black guy nignog and the black guy calling him White Honkey. I remember it being funny and having seen a episode recently, I still found it funny.

On the buses, another pretty good show from the 70's.
"In the heat of the night" with Sidny Poitier, great film.

It would be a shame if these were never shown in England again.

What point am I trying to make?

Context context context. Yes using these phrases in an offensive manner is disgusting and repulsive but lets not wipe out history because it offends a few people.

Garrett

17-05-2004, 9:56 PM

I always though nig-nog meant foolish and nothing what so ever to do with race. Though Jim Bowen recently called a black womon a nig-nog and had to resign although he really was made in the contexts of the other person not being clued up, do you think he would come out with the word if it had been racial.
But in these days of ultra PC the first three letters nig is the start of something racial it gets clamped down on.

JohnG

17-05-2004, 10:04 PM

If you remember Love Thy Neighbour and Till Death Us Do Part - the laugh was always on the white racists - they always got the worse of it in the end.

yatesd2404

18-05-2004, 7:09 AM

Ryan is right that context is the key.

The BBC have already said that other comedys like Alf Garnett and Fawlty Towers (the Major and his comments about "Wogs" - for those wondering) will not be cut as the people making the comments are shown to wrong or ignorant. I think this is also true with shows like "On the buses", "Love thy Neighbour" and "Rising Damp".

The problem that they had with OFAH was that the comments were used without any real need and the character is not shown to be wrong or criticised in the show by other characters. Therefore from their point of view it could be seen as they are condoning the use of ****.

It is difficult and I think for realism you have to sometimes show real life and that includes sex, violence and racism. Trouble is that whilst it is realistic that in the 80's in East London calling it a "**** Shop" would have been realistic it is not needed in the same way that swearing is not needed in the show when that would also have been more realistic.

Basically a comedy program should not use the realism card to justify reinforcing of unnecessary stereotypes.

Just my thoughts,

Dave.

PaulaB

18-05-2004, 8:57 AM

Afternoon,

I guess that depends on what the original intention of the person who created the character of R McD was intending his creation to be representative of.

If the creator's intention was to poke fun at Scottish people, then yes, it would be racist. If it wasn't, then the answer would obviously be "no".

Oh, and whilst I remember: how come so many sayings and children's playground rhymes are racially suspect too? e.g.
- That's like the pot calling the kettle black. (What has calling a kettle black, got to do with someone making a hypocritical comment?)
- Eeeny, meeny, minee, mo. Catch a n****r by its toe.
If it squeals, let it go. Eeeny, meeny, minee, mo.

There's probably a lot of others as well, bu these two come to mind the most.

Pooch
That's like th pot calling the kettle black, came from a time when both pots and kettles where black because of soot

In the days when cooking pots and kettles where placed over open fires to heat the contents they accumulated a great deal of soot on their exteriors and the color of one was indistinguishable from the other: that color was the black as one might expect with finely divided carbon in the form of soot - a percentage of which is in the relatively recently discovered carbon 60 form by the way.

Therefore to use the expression 'Pot calling the kettle black' was to indicate to the listener that there was absolutely nothing to choose between one of two or more positions, people, behaviors etc.

As for the second it was always catch a tigger where I grew up.