Poor Europe: Look at Australia !

[joys_R_us]

http://www.widescreentv.info/program.html

[Kramer]

...& they get better weather too :(

Some day........

[RecordablDVDfan]

Originally posted by joys_R_us
http://www.widescreentv.info/program.html

I posted this link days ago on another thread. Yep we're missing out a lot. Even ch9's breakfast show is in HD. A very rich country Australia is...

[CKNA]

90% of the shows in HD are US sitcoms from CBS and ABC which are already in HD. That is why they are in HD.

[RecordablDVDfan]

Also some home grown HD progs I think. Just making available the technology shows how far behind we are in the UK

The amont of money the BBC waste every year would be well spent on HD

Oh hang in your in the US, lucky you!

[joys_R_us]

Originally posted by CKNA
90% of the shows in HD are US sitcoms from CBS and ABC which are already in HD. That is why they are in HD.

Even US sitcoms would I watch in HD, and maybe a bit of American Football :grin:

[IanPM]

Hi guys, I'm new here, but am passionate about getting HDTV in this country.

The BBC are already producing areasonable amount of HDTV stuff. Things like the Discovery Co-productions are probably going to be HDTV from now on becuase Discovery only want HDTV and are prepared to pay the extra for the BBC to make the programmes in this format.

The BBC can also upconvert DigiBeta material and get a very reasonable 720p version out the other end. I saw a Walking with Beasts up-conversion and it looked good.

[RecordablDVDfan]

So the BBC have all the HD equipment to make make HD progs but don't provide a HD channel for the UK. Something wrong somewhere!

[hornydragon]

I think you will find that the BBC production side and broadcast side are very different, AS an international producer they have to produce HD material, As a local Broadcaster they dont! IF ITV had not buggered uo digital terrestrial the way they have HD might have been possible! But as a SAT only system it will be limited and its hard enough to get good freeveiw and get it into homes let alone PUSH HD to our aging population!
IF europe was as integrated as the US or as widespread as AUS it would be possible but 7+ languages and cultures + regional devides to small audiences, I wont happen fast!

[RecordablDVDfan]

I supopose when x amount of analogue trasnmitters are swtiched off spectrum will be used for HD

Then again if they droped a number of the pointless channels on freeview 1 or 2 HD services couild be added, new box needed of course but a real seller I would think

[Dutch]

If they used a much more efficient codec such as WM9, rather than obsolete MPEG2, there would be plenty of spectrum available for HD channels when analogue broadcasts end.

Steve

[IanPM]

Yeah, from what I can tell the BBC has some HD equipment but not very much. Obviously most crews are still using standard def equipment, but for programmes like Rockface HD equipment is hired in.

Editing is mostly done outside the BBC and most production houses are stepping up to HDTV now to cope with demand, and obviously editing HDTV is similar to editing film using Avid etc.

I think using MPEG-4 for the transmission could solve a lot of problems regarding bandwidth, an HD service running alonside Freeview with seperate equipment (MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 equipment could be sold in one uber package later on!)

I still think the BBC needs to be a little bit more pushy about HDTV.

[RecordablDVDfan]

Surely this new WMP9 codec is not as good as good old MPEG2 ? I thught it was only meant for pc's

[Wayne Moule]

Well WMP9 can deliver HDTV apparently and DVD capable players are around the corner.

See here > www.wmvhd.com

MPEG4 can look impressive and DVD like.I think it is at a lower bit-rate than DVD at better quality though isn't it?

MPEG 4 would look good for HD because of the doubling of the resolution I assume.But MPEG 2 would look even better on a 36in screen.

[RecordablDVDfan]

Was'nt the excellent live broadcast on BBC 1 from under the ocean - forget the name now - a few months ago in HD ? (shown in the USA at the same time) About the only thing which is worth making in HD apart from Films is any live outside wildlife broadcast IMO

[Kramer]

Originally posted by RecordablDVDfan
About the only thing which is worth making in HD apart from Films is any live outside wildlife broadcast IMO

I disagree.

What about concerts, sporting events (F1, football etc.), Discovery documentaries (science/technical etc.)?

Everything looks immeasurably better in HD (apart from Gail Platt in Corrie :grin:).

:smoke:

[RecordablDVDfan]

Originally posted by Kramer
I disagree.

What about concerts, sporting events (F1, football etc.), Discovery documentaries (science/technical etc.)?

Everything looks immeasurably better in HD (apart from Gail Platt in Corrie :grin:).

:smoke:

Gail looked good years ago, watch the Granada Plus episodes from 1992! It's what age does to you :-(

Yes probably right what you say. I'm not really in a position to say much about HD yet. I must buy one of those Skystar cards!

[MartinImber]

I have been pestering for analogue to be shut down to allow HDTV for 4 years now - it is why we went digital isn't it?

[RecordablDVDfan]

Australia had the right idea. They just went ahead and started up a proper terrestrial HDTV service 2 years ago now. It's not only the perfect country to live in but they have the perfect HDTV system also

I hate the UK!

[IanPM]

It was SUPPOSED to be the case that we would move to digital and that would allow us to have HDTV. In fact, an MPEG-2 HDTV stream is 18mbps I think, which is far and above what is possible using MPEG 4.

Quick demo, these grabs were taken from an MPEG-4 xVid (open source MPEG-4, not closed like DivX) the file itself is quite large here are its stats:

Bit Rate: 2219 kb/s
Frame Rate: 23.976 fps
QF: 0.183 bits/pixel
Dimensions: 960x528 (1.82:1) [=20:11]
File Size: 697 MB (or 714,470 KB or 731,617,280 bytes)
Runtime: 00:41:27 (59,640 fr)

And enclosed is a screen grab, not the best display of how great it looks, but trust me at slightly higher bit rates MPEG-4 is cool!

IMAGE: http://www.morrfin.com/hdtv/b.jpg

Did anyone see the Matrix Reloaded trailer from the Apple quicktime site when it came it, the 99mb one. That was another great showcase of MPEG-4, although 99mb is slightly large for 2 minutes :)

[dan_aka_jack]

Hi,

OK - let's cut to the chase. Does anyone know when HDTV is coming to the UK? Any hints at all? I know it's possible to buy HD TV sets now. I have two specific questions:

When will HD DVD players hit the UK?

When will HD broadcast (terrestrial / cable / sat) hit the UK?

Many thanks,
Jack

[IanPM]

The answer to that question is probably 2010 at the very ealiest.

The only surefire way to get access to HD material before then will be via D-VHS, Blu-Ray DVD (or whatever it is called), Euro satellite or downloaded material from the Internet.

TV's are already starting to appear. The JVC for a start. Many Plasma/LCD screens are 720p ready, as are many video projectors. 1080i is rare, but is still available.

Personally I would like to see europe adopt a slightly increased definition service, possibly 1080p, as I know most 1080i material is shot progressive anyway, Rockface, the BBC's biggest HDTV programme is certainly a 1080p production.

So, as long as the Government listens to people who know what they are talking about we might get HDTV when analogue gets shut down. I am sure I am not alone when I say, I doubt this will happen in 2010 :)

[RecordablDVDfan]

Hopefully it will be earlier than 2010, that's a long way off really. The technology is there, plenty of dosh about so let's go for it

[IanPM]

I do agree, but if you think about it, its only 6 years off. The BBC are very unlikely to get approval to start a new HDTV service so soon after spending (wasting?) all their money on extra digital channels.

ITV, C4, C5 and Sky aren't likely to go there until people are prepared to pay money. Even if Sky did go HD it would require people buy a new DigiBox, one that properly supports MP@HL rather than the current box which seems to only just support MP@ML.

I think the answer could lie with Digital cable and either MWVHD or MPEG-4 HD.

Don't forget as well, MPEG-4 has a level of built in copy protection, so this could be a way to encourage the broadcasters to adopt a HD transmission path.

[CKNA]

as I know most 1080i material is shot progressive anyway, Rockface, the BBC's biggest HDTV programme is certainly a 1080p production

No it is not. 1080p24 is used for movie transfers and some TV shows to make it look like film. There is no cameras or equipment yet that supports 1080p at 50Hz or 60Hz. There isn't even MPEG standard for anything higher than 1080p30. 1080p24 sucks for anything that has any high motion. You need at least 50fps and preferably 60fps.

[IanPM]

There must be a mistake in my information then, the BBC's HDTV production guide says:



Rockface is being shot on two Sony HDW900 camcorders hired from Panavision UK.
Panavision is also providing lenses and ancillary equipment for the shoot.
The images are being captured at 25 frames per second using the 1080p/25 format – i.e.
1080-line, progressive scan at 25 frames per second.
Using a progressive scan mode produces film motion effect in camera. This cannot be
removed later. The use of the 25 frames per second progressive scan mode has been agreed with the BBC.

[CKNA]

You are right. I completely forgot about those cams. These were developed for Lucas to shoot Star Wars. I did not know they did 25fps though. They must have modified them.

[IanPM]

Also, here is some infomation that was recently in the BBC staff newspaper Ariel:

http://www.morrfin.com/hdtv/bbc_hd.html

[richard plumb]

5 or 6 normal channels = 1 HD channel.

With the current freeview lineup, that sounds about right. Keep the main channels in HD, and dump the rest.

Even better, move to MPEg 4 and get 1HD channel for about 2-3 SD channels.

[joys_R_us]

"MPEG4 is "only" 40% more efficient than MPEG2".

This is a statement from one of the engineers involved in the development of MPEG4/H264 so we should be careful with our expectations. Also MPEG4 requires a hell of hardware to decode.

We can get there if only the politicians/broadcasters would start planning to start with HDTV (let's say) in 2006.

Bush is dreaming of Mars yet we still live in SD-world.

[SimonO]

Some would say Bush is FROM Mars..! Maybe he will volunteer for the first trip...

[d.boyd1uk]

What exactly is HDTV?

How does it work?

[John_Barber]

Originally posted by RecordablDVDfan
Australia had the right idea. They just went ahead and started up a proper terrestrial HDTV service 2 years ago now. It's not only the perfect country to live in but they have the perfect HDTV system also ...

Well it's very kind of you to say nice things, but there's a lot of members of our (Australian) digital broadcasting forum who'd argue about the "perfect HD" thing! Personally I agree it has some advantages, but there are limitations.
In Australia we have 5 main TV channels (mainland capitals) and separate "regional" networks which have basically aligned with one of the three "national" commercial networks.
Main networks are: ABC TV (government non commercial, funded by taxes - no TV license fees, bit like BBC) SBS TV (government part funded by taxpayer, also has advertising, intended as "ethnic" or multicultural broadcaster, lots of subtitles, good doco's, non english language movies and "Eurovision Song Contest" for the past 20 years!) Channel 9 (generally top rating network, owned by Consolidated Press Holdings - Kerry Packer, plus independent full affiliates in Adel., Perth) Channel 10 (commercial publicly listed, main shareholder Canwest Izzy Asper ?), Channel 7 (commercial, publicly listed, largest commercial network in Australia with full ownership of all mainland capital stations and some regionals, main shareholder Kerry Stokes)

Basically (for those not familiar with it) our digital terrestrial service was introduced along the following lines.

Digital TV spectrum assigned to existing broadcasters.
Analogue service to phase out from 2008 ? (with review according to uptake)
Digital service to transmit SD simulcast of analogue service.
Digital service to transmit 20 hours or more per week of HDTV from 2004.
No commercial network can transmit "datacasting" service on digital beyond their existing (teletext) datacasting prior to digital.
No commercial network can "multi channel" (different programmes) on their other programme streams. (This was to protect fledgling PAY TV service in Australia, like Rupert Murdoch needs protection!!)

Basically the HD programme content must be the same as the SD/Analogue service, there is an exemption for HD demo loops and similar material.
The networks can run an EPG type service (and most do) on one of the digital channels. This is a "visual" service and not a data type service we can use to set our STB recorders or DTV cards to set recordings with.
Networks can transmit "auxiliary" programme information on the extra channels. During the Rugby World Cup (something best forgotten by many Australians!) the extra digital service on Channel 7 had a "Stats Pad" page with facts and figures and Rugby News items, and a reduced sized insert of the main vision feed and commentary. A separate channel had the same vision as the main SD/Analogue feed but alternate commentary. For example Maori commentary on some matches, Welsh, South African English and so on. (Boy oh boy, I thought Australian commentators were one-eyed, you gotta hear the 'Sythe Ifricans' !!) And as for Welsh & Maori, well I had no idea what was going on!!! It was a neat addition to the rugby coverage and pretty much the first and only demonstration of what other types of services DTV is capable of offering.

The two government channels do not have multichannel restrictions and the ABC ran a Children's Channel and a "teen" channel for a while (until they had a dummy spit over government funding and dropped these extra channels).
SBS TV runs a "World News" channel which has news bulletins from all over the place, eg Germany, France, Indonesia, Japan, Spain, Greece, Philippines (now that news service is a real 'cack'), Poland, Russia, China, Hong Kong (still separate as far as I am concerned) Ukraine, Malta, Hungary, Chile and the list goes on. The Vietnamese language service was dropped after continual protests from local (South) Vietnamese community in Australia about the propaganda from Hanoi.
None of these services is in English, apart from the frequent English expression or government department name audible over the tacky 'dramatic' background music on the Phillipines bulletin.

"Regional" commercial networks (outside mainland capitals) have relaxed regulations regarding introduction of digital TV, and HD content.


Oh, the other thing is that the regulations in Australia means 1080 , 720p and 576p qualify as HD.
SBS and Channel 7 have elected to go with 576p (much to the disgust of some HD viewers in Australia) and Nine and Ten have elected to go with 1080i. There are reasons why the commercial networks "disagree" on the HD standard, but it has become clear from various media reports that 7 Network wishes to have the legislation allow them to "multichannel" (possibly a PAY TV channel piggybacking on their FTA service).
No-one transmits 720p here at present.

Anyway, the foundation is there for a pretty good service when the takeup rates improve. Currently takeup is said to be similar to DVD's at the same time after introduction (2-3 years) and DVD has taken off in a big way in Australia, with a couple of years head start on DTV.
The issues in Australia are basically
(consumer)
-Wants multichannelling or some other reason to go digital
-Early adopters/HT nerds want all HD to be 1080i or 720p, not 576p.
-Wants cheaper STBs and Plasmas.

(networks)
-Some networks want restrictions eased on multichannelling
-Some other "would be" players want restrictions eased on "data casting" so that they can pretend they are datacasting when in fact they are introducing a competing commercial service!!

Hope this "primer" helps you understand how our "perfect" system works!

More info can be found in our local forum, may be against this forums rules, but in case, to find the forum, it is run by non-profit industry group "digital broadcasting australia" known by the lower case acronym 'dba', it is an 'org', it is based in 'au'.

Click on "forums"

Gotta go, "The Bill" has started.

Cheers

John Barber
Melbourne
(Disclaimer: I work at one of the above mentioned commercial networks)


PS, weather- far from perfect , it was 41 degrees today in melbourne. (Um.. 106 farenheit), not my idea of nice.

[Rimmer]

I'm curious to know how Australian HDTV deals with non-50hz material.

For example, is 24p material broadcast in 24p, or do you still get the 4% speed up to 25p? And is 60hz considered an acceptable alternative broadcast format?

[CKNA]

Some channels in Australia use 576p50fps which they call HD but it is not. Others that braodcast true HD use 1080i50Hz. Yes they still get 4% speed up and 60Hz or 60fps is not acceptable alternative for broadcast. IMHO it should be. 50Hz should go the way of dinosaur and all HD should be at least 60Hz. I guess countries with 50Hz broadcasting keep that frame rate for compatibility with old material.

[Rimmer]

So everything is 50Hz - I suspected as much.

Obviously when simulcasting in SD, broadcasting in 24p will affect running times (a time difference of around 2½ minutes per hour). I don't see this as a huge problem, though. Just show fewer ads on HD.

I can't think of any good reason not to show 60Hz material in its original format. There are no differences in running time, and SD viewers could simply receive a 50Hz feed.

No doubt 50Hz will be the preferred HD production format in PAL countries as long as downconversion to SD is needed, but beyond that there's no justification for it. As US film and tv production gradually moves away from film towards digital video, there's going to be a lot more 60Hz material around; I don't think anyone would want to see their favourite movie butchered to 50Hz.

[John_Barber]

Originally posted by CKNA
Some channels in Australia use 576p50fps which they call HD but it is not. Others that braodcast true HD use 1080i50Hz. Yes they still get 4% speed up and 60Hz or 60fps is not acceptable alternative for broadcast. IMHO it should be. 50Hz should go the way of dinosaur and all HD should be at least 60Hz. I guess countries with 50Hz broadcasting keep that frame rate for compatibility with old material.

CKNA.
It is unlikely that 50Hz countries are just going to switch to 60Hz to suit the US producers of 60Hz material. There are many technical and other issues involved, as well as backward compatibility you mentioned.
As for Australia's use of 576p25 as HD, this mirrors acceptance of 480p as a US "HD" standard.

The recommended production format for international interchange is not 60 Hz, or indeed 50Hz. It is 1080p24.
This has, of course, the resolution we all want, it's progressive scanned and 24fps means that it converts easily to 60 Hz (via 3:2 pulldown) and 50 Hz (whoops, the movie runs a bit shorter).

Unfortunately 1080p24 is a bit of an "Esperanto" in some respects. Apart from special purposes in Cinema production, nobody is really a "native" user of 24 Hz video.

JB

[CKNA]

Originally posted by John_Barber
CKNA.
It is unlikely that 50Hz countries are just going to switch to 60Hz to suit the US producers of 60Hz material. There are many technical and other issues involved, as well as backward compatibility you mentioned.
As for Australia's use of 576p25 as HD, this mirrors acceptance of 480p as a US "HD" standard.

The recommended production format for international interchange is not 60 Hz, or indeed 50Hz. It is 1080p24.
This has, of course, the resolution we all want, it's progressive scanned and 24fps means that it converts easily to 60 Hz (via 3:2 pulldown) and 50 Hz (whoops, the movie runs a bit shorter).

Unfortunately 1080p24 is a bit of an "Esperanto" in some respects. Apart from special purposes in Cinema production, nobody is really a "native" user of 24 Hz video.

JB

480p is not HD in US. It is ED (extended definition). ATSC spec specifies 18 formats for digital television not only HDTV. HD is 720p, 1080i and 1080p. All resolutions also support different frame rates so that is why there are 18. As a matter of fact ATSC even supports 25p/50Hz video. 1080p24 is a standard for producing film like effect and eventually to repalce film. The reason for 60Hz being better than 50Hz is because 60Hz captures fast motion better and higher temporal resolution also gives extra detail. The biggest problem though is conversion between 50 and 60Hz. When going from 50Hz to 60Hz conversion is pretty good and it retains 98% of original detail, but when you go from 60Hz to 50Hz you may loose up to 20% of original resolution plus you get very visible judder. You can read up on conversion between formats on Snell Wilcox website, makers of the best standard converters.