[Avi]

Originally Posted by stratosboy

I like the design of my AVR600 and reliability wise it has been faultless since new for the past 2 years +

Some would consider the inability to pass 23.976Hz Blu-ray film as a pretty serious design issue. It's inconceivable that any company that understands and is serious about video could mess up in this way. Even more telling (worrying!) was the reason given by Arcam technical staff about the issue.....

"Please note that video encoded at 23.976Hz is not true 24p but rather NTSC video (60i or 30p) converted to 23.976Hz. This material may have better video quality if viewed at 60Hz. For further information, see....

Matthew Neighbour
Development Support Engineer
Arcam"

Avi

[Rock Danger]

Originally Posted by Avi

Some would consider the inability to pass 23.976Hz Blu-ray film as a pretty serious design issue.

If hdmi 1.4 was in effect at the amps release then yes, but it wasn't and now that it is, the upgrade sorts that out. The fact that the board comes out wihout having to take the lid off and is held on by 2 data cables and some screws and takes all of 5 mins to do, I would say is a pretty good design.


Admittedly the excuse is utter cats nuts.

[Damian1978]

Wonder if they'll let us do the upgrade ourselves?

I've made enough PCs in my days :-)

As for BD players...just upgraded to the Cambridge Audio 651BD. What a player! Great pic and decent drive and excellent build quality. Arcam could do worse than base a player on the Oppo roots or OEM platform they use.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by Rock Danger

If hdmi 1.4 was in effect at the amps release then yes, but it wasn't and now that it is, the upgrade sorts that out. The fact that the board comes out wihout having to take the lid off and is held on by 2 data cables and some screws and takes all of 5 mins to do, I would say is a pretty good design.


Admittedly the excuse is utter cats nuts.

Why does HDMI 1.4 have any bearing on being able to pass Blu-ray film at native 23.976Hz ? Earlier versions of HDMI can support 23.976Hz output so the issue is entirely related to Arcam's video design and/or implementation not HDMI version per se.

Does the upgrade address the needs of user wishing to passthrough 23.976Hz to more than one display if using both HDMI outputs or is this limited by video design again to just a single HDMI output?

Is the upgrade necessary to passthough 23.976Hz FOC for those who purchased a product that has the 23.976Hz passthrough design issue ?

Avi

[Rock Danger]

Originally Posted by Avi

Why does HDMI 1.4 have any bearing on being able to pass Blu-ray film at native 23.976Hz ? Earlier versions of HDMI can support 23.976Hz output so the issue is entirely related to Arcam's video design and/or implementation not HDMI version per se.

Maybe not, but with HDMI 1.4 you have to have passthru, which was my point. Many AVR's with 1.3 didn't comply either and even PC video like what you would find by intel on the clarkdale was also guilty. It wasn't a considered necessary at the time so they just didn't go to the extra expense or time to bother with it, since it's not a huge issue for most.

Originally Posted by Avi

Does the upgrade address the needs of user wishing to passthrough 23.976Hz to more than one display if using both HDMI outputs or is this limited by video design again to just a single HDMI output?

Single as far as I know, which is something found on other AVR's as well for probably the same reasons again. And since most people don't run their projector and TV at the same time, I guess it wasn't important.

Originally Posted by Avi

Is the upgrade necessary to passthough 23.976Hz FOC for those who purchased a product that has the 23.976Hz passthrough design issue ?

Avi

Yes? Sorry not sure what FOC means. The fact is that now it does, similar for the Anthem line who's more expensive processor required a board upgrade as well. Many people don't have an issue with 23.976Hz not done proper, it's like plasma flicker - most people simply don't see it.

A serious design flaw would the inability to upgrade the unit in this way which would apply to 90%+ of Av gear already. It's not a 100% perfect, but then again show me an AVR that is.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by Rock Danger

Maybe not, but with HDMI 1.4 you have to have passthru, which was my point..

Which part of the HDMI specification covers passthrough not related to 3D ?

Originally Posted by Rock Danger

Single as far as I know, which is something found on other AVR's as well for probably the same reasons again. And since most people don't run their projector and TV at the same time, I guess it wasn't important.

Does that mean the 23.976hz passthrough can be dynamically switched to either HDMI output without having to swap the TV or PJ cable around or use an external switch ?

Originally Posted by Rock Danger

Yes? Sorry not sure what FOC means. The fact is that now it does, similar for the Anthem line who's more expensive processor required a board upgrade as well. Many people don't have an issue with 23.976Hz not done proper, it's like plasma flicker - most people simply don't see it.

A serious design flaw would the inability to upgrade the unit in this way which would apply to 90%+ of Av gear already. It's not a 100% perfect, but then again show me an AVR that is.

The point isn't about HDMI version it's about how the manufacturer implements the video solution. I've used 23.976Hz out for years with both DVI and numerous revisions of HDMI.

There's lots of excuses but the simple fact is Arcam appear to have designed or "bought it" a design that doesn't allow 23.967hz Blu-ray film (which is the vast majority of Blu-ray film) to be output at the correct frequency irrespective of if this is "passthrough" the video section or processed in some way.

FOC means free of charge for those that purchased the product and found it couldn't support Blu-ray film output at the correct native frequency i.e. fix a video design issue not be charged to upgrade for other features.

The original point was simply that any company that understands video and is serious about video quality wouldn't force incorrect frame rate conversion especially for a format such as Blu-ray what is largely about image quality. It suggest Arcam's "in house" video expertise isn't particularly good or video isn't a performance priority. Either way this is a concern with regard to claims about "in house" Blu-ray player design given their recent video design decisions.

Avi

[Rock Danger]

Originally Posted by Avi

Which part of the HDMI specification covers passthrough not related to 3D ?

Does that mean the 23.976hz passthrough can be dynamically switched to either HDMI output without having to swap the TV or PJ cable around or use an external switch ?

No, that's not what I meant - What I was trying to say was that people associate 1.4 HDMI with 3d and not with the actual difference being ARC / Ethernet.

As far as I know if you want to dynamically switch it, you have to split output 1 - so still not a big deal unless you switch them on both at the same time. It's still a non issue and again not something may would run into. I'll wager most people would just have their telly in output 2 because they simply can't see the difference.

Originally Posted by Avi

The point isn't about HDMI version it's about how the manufacturer implements the video solution. I've used 23.976Hz out for years with both DVI and numerous revisions of HDMI.

There's lots of excuses but the simple fact is Arcam appear to have designed or "bought it" a design that doesn't allow 23.967hz Blu-ray film (which is the vast majority of Blu-ray film) to be output at the correct frequency irrespective of if this is "passthrough" the video section or processed in some way.

It's the same on many amps, it's lazy technology across many manufacturers, there's not enuff demand or outcry about it for it to be corrected.

Originally Posted by Avi

FOC means free of charge for those that purchased the product and found it couldn't support Blu-ray film output at the correct native frequency i.e. fix a video design issue not be charged to upgrade for other features.

Of course not, does anyone? It wasn't a big enuff deal, that's why hiding it under the guise of 3d makes it seem acceptable.

Originally Posted by Avi

The original point was simply that any company that understands video and is serious about video quality wouldn't force incorrect frame rate conversion especially for a format such as Blu-ray what is largely about image quality. It suggest Arcam's "in house" video expertise isn't particularly good or video isn't a performance priority. Either way this is a concern with regard to claims about "in house" Blu-ray player design given their recent video design decisions.

Avi

I agree but that's not the way the world works, they don't cater to those 2% with a keener eye. It's not like Arcam or any other company didn't know or didn't take it into consideration. I have to have faith that anyone with that level of skill in programming and design cannot possibly be that thick - or I may as well just take myself out back with the shotgun.

A lot of people would kick off about the lacking volume knob and say it's a bad design.. which it is for some, for knob enthusiasts I guess.

It was a way to cut costs, nothing more.


Now the blue ray player... after reading that thread you have to wonder if the cleaning lady is writing the code for that.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by Rock Danger

Now the blue ray player... after reading that thread you have to wonder if the cleaning lady is writing the code for that.

Just maximizing past brand reputation I guess. In hard times brand can be an asset to sell almost anything to the loyal or unwary who believe the marketing.

I guess time will tell.

Avi

[Avi]

Originally Posted by Rock Danger

A lot of people would kick off about the lacking volume knob and say it's a bad design.. which it is for some, for knob enthusiasts I guess.

Lol - Maybe Arcam should dispense with volume control completely and offer it later as a chargeable upgrade. I guess it's only important if you're an adjustable volume enthusiast

A product that doesn't provide an option to correctly output film on the highest quality consumer format available sounds like bad design and there's no excuse.

Asking customers to spend more money to correct your design flaw is a nice touch and great if your customers simply accept this and pay.

Looking forward to assessing the new Blu-ray model.

Avi

[Rock Danger]

Haha indeed. It's not that I think you're wrong, my point was they knew just fine, it just wasn't worth the extra hassel / cost vs people that would care. I'd still say that having the option to upgrade is good tho, it was obviously foretold. Can you imagine the rage if you had to ditch your 3.5k amp because of this?

The board also went thru several price changes, £200, £400, £600 and then settled on £500 (probably a rock paper scissors decider) Tbh, I'm more annoyed that they let this thing out with the pops and bangs and are only now fixing it, because as much as they have tried it can't be fixed with firmware.

Mine rarely does it, but it will get fixed and if it can't be fixed well I guess I'll have to look at something else. It's just such a good sounding amp all round. Arcam are horrendously overpriced tho and are certainly taking the pish at 3.5k with no native 23.967 and glitches.

It will cost you 4 grand for a 3d ready, non popping version which is mad, but for a moment what would you say are serious competitors in the same price bracket?

Knobs optional.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by Rock Danger

HArcam are horrendously overpriced tho and are certainly taking the pish at 3.5k with no native 23.967 and glitches.

It will cost you 4 grand for a 3d ready, non popping version which is mad, but for a moment what would you say are serious competitors in the same price bracket?

I guess it depends on the individual requirements, performance demands and the personal preference in terms of what's "good sounding". One man's meat can be another man's poison.

Personally I try to avoid mixing video processing, HDMI and DAC in the same device so don't use AVR amps or combined AV processor type products . I've generally found keeping audio and video discrete as much as possible can improve performance but there are lots of variables. I tend to use audio via HDMI for multi-channel digital when there is no alternative.

Avi

[BobbyMac]

Originally Posted by Rock Danger

It will cost you 4 grand for a 3d ready, non popping version which is mad, but for a moment what would you say are serious competitors in the same price bracket?

Knobs optional.

Fair point, your not going to get a processor/power amp combo to better it without spending £6K+

Only feasible way is to buy £2k Anthem/Denon AV Receiver and a £1-£2k Stereo Amp with AV Bypass, although that isn't as elegant as a one box solution.

[gscholefield]

Any news yet anyone ? price /spec

Cheers Gary

[Sab]

Matt from Arcam has told me that they will be shipping the new Blu Ray Player in around early March. The cost of the upgrade is yet to be confirmed.

However, I am happy with my BDP100's performance: excellent audio and video.Also, the unit has been reliable for the period of one year that I have had it apart from stopping playback on a few discs but switching it off and on again fixed this problem.

A lot of people here have had a lot more problems than me. I am a bit wary of upgrading and finding more problems with the new player.

How can Arcam can improve on the performance of the BDP100?

Will anyone upgrade straightaway?

[Damian1978]

I think the audio performance of the BDP100 was fine but they should be easy to "improve" (depending on whether you like it or not) video performance bu removing edge enhancement by default and offer something nearer to the more natural unprocessed picture of the PS3, Oppo BD93 or CA 651BD players. If the CA I have could match the DV139 for 2 channel audio I'd trade it in but its still remarkably good and the Marvell chipset really does make DVDs look good.

Will have a real think about this player. Will it be Universal?

[Sab]

The specs are yet to be officially released by Arcam but I think it might not be universal. But I could be wrong.

[Damian1978]

Well...think I may be keeping my DV139/651BD combo then!

[Finn Ellebaek]

Originally Posted by Sab

Matt from Arcam has told me that they will be shipping the new Blu Ray Player in around early March. The cost of the upgrade is yet to be confirmed.

I believe Arcam only announced new DACs and docks at Bristol Show 2012 this weekend so a release can't be imminent?

Cheers

[Sab]

As usual Arcam are delaying their new Blu Ray player. Now I have been told to wait for around 3 weeks. The upgrade cost is likely to be £200.

The spec is still to be announced. And yes, it was not quite ready for the Bristol Show.

[robase007]

My BDP100 has started rejecting disc. Each time I put a disc in it just ejects it. Guess it will have to go back.

[BobbyMac]

Originally Posted by Sab

As usual Arcam are delaying their new Blu Ray player. Now I have been told to wait for around 3 weeks. The upgrade cost is likely to be £200.

The spec is still to be announced. And yes, it was not quite ready for the Bristol Show.

Bit of a cheek (especially if the Arcam punter paid FULL RRP) for Arcam to ask for an additional £200 to upgrade/fix the original BDP

[Finn Ellebaek]

Originally Posted by BobbyMac

Bit of a cheek (especially if the Arcam punter paid FULL RRP) for Arcam to ask for an additional £200 to upgrade/fix the original BDP

Hopefully we get something that is way better and 3D-capable :-).

[kcsun]

I am waiting for the Arcam also. It will either be that or an Oppo. Would prefer to keep it in the family but if it does not spec up I will cross to the dark side

[iainl2005]

Originally Posted by robase007

My BDP100 has started rejecting disc. Each time I put a disc in it just ejects it. Guess it will have to go back.

Mine has started doing that as well, wont play anything. Has anyone experienced intermittent flashing static on screen, probably lasts about 30 seconds at a time? It seems to come and go regardless of which disc is playing.

[Rock Danger]

Why would you guys even consider their new blu ray player given this companies history with video processing? Especially after the giant train wreck of their first model I'd imagine you'd have to be mad to have another stab at it.

Get an oppo or the like and don't look back, unless you're bitstream only, then just get whatever you like.

[Sab]

Rock danger - how does the video processing of the BDP100 differ from the Oppo 95 or the Cambridge Audio?

Sorry for my ignorance. I have read that the BDP100 does sharpen the image.
Some people may like the image and some people may not.

I have had my BDP 100 for a bit more than a year without any major problems.I am wary of upgrading to the new one in case I do have major problems.

Also, Arcam Customer Support have confirmed that their new player will not be universal.

What am I missing out by not having a Universal Player like the Oppo 95 or the Cambridge Audio in terms of audio and video quality ( apart from SACD and DVD Audio) ?

This is not meant to a rant by the way.

[Damian1978]

When you see the difference in a non "enhanced" and edge "enhanced" pictures then you can kinda appreciate it.

I liked the DVD and CD performance of the BDP100 but then got a PS3 Slim and it was just so more natural and less processed on BD. Then the DV139 showed me how much better it was for DVD and CD.

The Oppo/CA are fantastic players. I think, sadly, Arcam are gonna find it difficult to compete with them. Are we gonna see another more up to date Broadcom based player?? I hope not :-/

[potshot]

I am so happy with my £160 samsung player what has not given me one bit of bother, plays every disk without a problem and to my eyes the picture looks fine on my kuro and JVC projector.

[Ian_S]

Originally Posted by Rock Danger

Why would you guys even consider their new blu ray player given this companies history with video processing? Especially after the giant train wreck of their first model I'd imagine you'd have to be mad to have another stab at it.

There was life before the BDP-100 strangely enough, and back in the days of DVD, Arcam had a good reputation for their players. There are good reasons why the BDP-100 was what it was, so there is the possibility that with another player, Arcam could deliver something closer to their original intention.

On past reputation they at least deserve the chance of improving on the BDP-100.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by Ian_S

back in the days of DVD, Arcam had a good reputation for their players.

On the video side some Arcam models gained traction in certain quarters because they were amongst the first to offer the option to output DVD via DVI/HDMI at native resolution i.e. 480/576 "i" which was uncommon in the day.

I think the challenge for Arcam with video products is the competition got much better, price points more aggressive plus digital video differentiation without resorting to messing with the image is pretty limited.

It will be interesting to see how the new player objectively performs.

Avi