Best match for AVR350 - Sony or Panasonic Blu Ray?

[alcabs]

I am currently thinking of purchasing either a Panasonic DMP-BD55 or Sony BDP-S550 Blu Ray to go with my AVR350. (One of these will suffice until Arcam's Blu Ray finally appears, if I can afford it!).

However, as regards the analog audio setup on both players, both appear to have limitations / quirks and as I need to use the analog outs for the 350 I wondered if anyone using the players with Arcam kit would recommend one over the other.

The Sony appears to allow you to adjust everything (delays, levels, speaker sizes, etc) apart from the infamous fixed crossover - which nobody seems to know the value of - rumoured to be around 100 - 120Hz.
The Panny has a wierd more limited set of speaker options that don't allow you to individually adjust the front Left and Right - they apparently are fixed as "Reference" to the other speakers + it does not emit a test tone for the sub for some bizzare reason! But at least they have stated the sub crossover is 100Hz.

Incidentally, my speakers are Tannoy Arena Highline 500's, currently set to 80Hz crossover but I guess moving up to 100Hz would not make a whole heap of difference.

In the reviews I have read the Panny seems to be rated just ahead on picture quality and better sound but there seems to be a real lack of proper reviews of the Sony 550 or even a head to head between these two obvious direct market rivals.

The other factor is price and availability - the Sony appears to be readily available and best price is £219, significantly lower than it original RRP of £349. The Panny appears to be out of stock virtually everywhere and costs £399.

So - which to choose for my AVR350? is the Panny worth the extra dosh despite its poorer analog out setup options for its supposed better PQ and sound? Some of you guys out there must have some opinions?

Cheers.

[clockworks]

Any reason why you have to use analogue audio?

I'm using a Playstation3, widely regarded as the best Blu-Ray player for the money, with the added bonus of a free games console and HDD media player.

I use one with my 350 (optical), and I'm very pleased with it.

Edit: Reading another post, I guess you want to use analogue to get the HD soundtrack?

[svphile]

I'm using the 55k with my 350. I looked at the 550 but went with the panny for the better PQ and analog sound from reviews. I admitt there don't seem to be a lot of reviews for the 550 and they don't seem to be very different on paper.

I've got the speakers set to small and 0 db for all 6 speakers in the player. Boosting LFE 10+ db in 350. Sub's crossover is disabled.

I set levels with the 350's trims. I kept FL at 0 db in arcam and turned up master volume until I hit 75 db on spl. I then used the 350 trims to set the remaining speakers to 75 db. They didn't need much movement off 0 db. I just ballparked the sub's level (lack of tone). I haven't felt any lack of bass. There is plenty. Wall-e, Kung Fu Panda, and Casino Royale sound very good.

I thought this was the best way to configure my system but all this -15 db stuff has me wondering if my satellite levels are 5 db off the sub's. I don't know for sure but it sounds great.

Speakers are 3 M&K S-150's, 2 SS-150's, and MX-350SFX.

[alcabs]

Clockworks - yes I need the analogs for the HD soundtracks, no other way to get them through an AVR350.

Svfile - thanks for the info on the Panny 55. Pity it's so hard to actually buy! Everybody seems to be waiting for stock to come in.

Anybody else on the Arcam forum want to champion the Sony? I think I have seen a couple of people on this forum are using them with Arcam gear.

If you have any opinions/ hands on experience please speak up.

[audiotom]

the Pioneer BDP 05 has d/a dacs and 7.1 analog outs and works well with the Arcam

Oppo is also having a new Blu Ray that may include DVD-A and SACD formats

Tom

[markusp]

alcabs - I have owned the Panasonic BD-55, the Sony S550 and the Pioneer 51FD and all have their strengths and weaknesses. Here are some of my thoughts:

Panasonic +:

• Nice startup times
• Can output digital audio and analog audio at same time without adjusting settings
• Panasonic is very quick to offer firmware updates and address disc issues
• Flexible bass management scheme
• Profile 2.0 with all HD audio decoders onboard and active
• Easy to update firmware thanks to ethernet connection

Panasonic -:

• Buld quality is worst of the three players I mentioned
• Setting up LFE levels requires trial and error as there is no test tone emitted during setup
• Menus can be quite confusing as you must turn off elements in the video menu in order for proper analog output to work etc.
• Audio via analog output is inferior to the Pioneer

Sony +:

• Very quick startup times, especially with Quickstart activated
• Easy to navigate and set up thanks to innovative menu structure
• Profile 2.0 and with all HD audio available decoders onboard and active
• Nice build quality
• Very flexibly bass management - emits LFE test tone
• Can adjust video output to dial in picture quality to your liking to best suit your particular display
• Easy to update firmware thanks to ethernet connection

Sony -:

• Digital audio and analog audio are not fully active at the same time. You must access the menu and switch audio priorities each time you wish to switch between the two
• Analog audio is below level of Pioneer but in my opinion equal to the Panasonic
• SD DVD upconversion a touch soft in comparison to the the Panasonic BD55

Pioneer +:

• Analog audio is terrific and a clear step above the Sony and Panasonic thanks to its Wolfson DACs
• Build quality is terrific, especially for the price
• Offers source direct mode so it can easily be partnered with a scaler
• Pic quality is terrific as well since pic can be adjusted to preferences similar to the Sony
• CD audio quality is very good as well and a clear step up over the Sony and Panasonic again thanks to its Wolfson DACs

Pioneer -:

• Bass management is clearly lacking - no ability to set speaker distances
• Does not currently have the ability to internally decode DTS HD-MA
• Only Profile 1.1
• Firmware updates have been very slow to be implemented by Pioneer. Problems of stability still persist.
• Updating firmware requires downloading of image file from Pioneer's website and burning to CD on computer as player lacks ethernet connection
• Like the Sony, analog audio and digital audio are not fully active at the same time and as such, you must switch between audio priorities within the setup menu
• Expensive in comparison to the Sony and Panasonic - less features offered
• Utilizes a first generation drive and so is less tolerant of disc scratches or flaws.
• Slow as molasses to boot up and load discs, again thanks to it's first generation drive
• Feels like a beta test unit at times

So, which unit do I recommend? If Analog audio quality is your priority, the Pioneer is tough to beat, but only if you can accept its bass management shortcomings. You cannot set speaker distances, you cannot set individual speakers to small or large (only global setting offered) and the crossover seems to be set around the 120 Hz mark if some reports are to be believed. However, if you can operate your speakers as large, the Pioneer easily bests the Sony and Panasonic for HD audio quality.

IF you want a terrific all around player, then I recommend the Sony at this time. It has nice build quality, loads quickly, offers pic adjustments and is a great buy at the moment.

The Panasonic is a great player as well but is let down a touch by its cheap build quality and cheap looks. Its menu is a touch confusing to set up but this player is a great choice for those people who prefer to have their audio decoded in the pre pro or receiver via digital when viewing SD DVDs but also want their HD audio decoded in the player via analog outputs.

Personally, I currently run the Pioneer but plan to return to the Panasonic for the reasons I just mentioned above. I need digital and analog audio to be active at the same time and don't want to fuss switching between audio priorities in the set up menu every time I want to watch a SD DVD.

[trailer]

Great review. Are the players region encoded for standard DVD's and what was that performance like for each of the players?

[alcabs]

Markusp - thanks for that very detailed reply. Just what I was looking for.

A couple more questions - how do the Sony and Panasonic compare for picture quality? There appear to be reviews comments from various users that the Panasonic appears to have "richer" colour palette and is slightly more "vibrant" in its presentation. Did you notice any differences there or is this just talk?

Also, where do you estimate the Sony crossover lies? I doubt I can run my speakers all as Large so that's fairly important. Glad to hear you think the sound quality matches the Panny as again a lot of people have cited its improved analog side as superior.

I have been looking at Pioneers as well. One of my friends was intending getting an LX71 so I downloaded the User Manual from the Pioneer website to see what the analog setup options are. A crushing disappointment is what they are with very poor implementation as you have mentioned as regards the 51FD. Just last week the manual for the LX91, their flagship player appeared on the Pioneer US website and, despite all that lovely high-end DACs and quality analog circuitry and being Profile 2 to boot, the analog and bass management options are virtually non-existant. I think the only thing you can adjust is the speaker levels. Considering Pioneers alleged hi-end reputation the analog outs are virtually useless. Poor show.

It's, quite frankly, amazing that the ONLY Blu Ray player currently on the market with the full gamut of analog output adjustment option is Denon's 3800BD. Pity it's only profile 1.1. There is ALWAYS a catch
And bl**dy expensive!

[markusp]

Originally Posted by trailer

Great review. Are the players region encoded for standard DVD's and what was that performance like for each of the players?

Hi Trailer - here in North America, we don't have the ability to make our players region free as they lack the ability to play PAL standard.

In terms of upconversion, I would rate the Pioneer with its latest 1.17 firmware at the top and the Panasonic just slightly ahead of the Sony, but just slightly and that is only because I was able to compare them directly against each other. In no way does the Panasonic "blow away" the Sony in terms of SD DVD playback as some posts may suggest.

[markusp]

Originally Posted by alcabs

Markusp - thanks for that very detailed reply. Just what I was looking for.

A couple more questions - how do the Sony and Panasonic compare for picture quality? There appear to be reviews comments from various users that the Panasonic appears to have "richer" colour palette and is slightly more "vibrant" in its presentation. Did you notice any differences there or is this just talk?

Also, where do you estimate the Sony crossover lies? I doubt I can run my speakers all as Large so that's fairly important. Glad to hear you think the sound quality matches the Panny as again a lot of people have cited its improved analog side as superior.

I have been looking at Pioneers as well. One of my friends was intending getting an LX71 so I downloaded the User Manual from the Pioneer website to see what the analog setup options are. A crushing disappointment is what they are with very poor implementation as you have mentioned as regards the 51FD. Just last week the manual for the LX91, their flagship player appeared on the Pioneer US website and, despite all that lovely high-end DACs and quality analog circuitry and being Profile 2 to boot, the analog and bass management options are virtually non-existant. I think the only thing you can adjust is the speaker levels. Considering Pioneers alleged hi-end reputation the analog outs are virtually useless. Poor show.

It's, quite frankly, amazing that the ONLY Blu Ray player currently on the market with the full gamut of analog output adjustment option is Denon's 3800BD. Pity it's only profile 1.1. There is ALWAYS a catch
And bl**dy expensive!

No problem alcabs

Out of the box, I would rate the Panasonic and the Sony equal for Blu-ray playback. Heck, almost all RECENT Blu-ray players deliver a stunning 1080p24 picture and the differences now mostly pertain to flexibility, SD DVD quality and analog output quality. I can see how some people would possibly think that the Panasonic offers richer colours or appears more vibrant at its default setting but the Sony has a number of user settings that you can tweak to produce a picture that suits your tastes and display. Once adjusted, I find the Sony to at least equal the Panasonic for pic quality.

As to crossover, I believe the Sony is set to 100 Hz and is certainly set lower than the Pioneer. I tested this with 2 channel music and by turning off my subwoofer. The Sony and Panasonic easily deliver more bass through my fronts in this scenario than the Pioneer, hence my belief of reports that the Pioneer is actually set to 120 Hz.

As to audio quality between the Sony and Panasonic, I think that people believe that the Panasonic sounds better due to a: hype and advertising (audio grade components yada yada yada but all crammed into a box approx. 2.5 cm tall?) and b: because the sub must be manually adjusted due to lack of test tone and as such, the sound can sound fuller right off the bat as sub levels may actually be set too high. Where people are having problems with the Sony is that it does adhere to the Dolby Spec and as such requires a +15 db LFE boost in order to sound rich and full, as opposed to +10 when speakers are set to SMALL. Our Arcam products offer a +10 db LFE boost within the setup menu and so some small adjustments are needed within the Sony and possibly the sub itself to get it to sound as full as the Panasonic but once fully adjusted, sounds equal to the Panasonic.

Hope all that helps. You can't really go wrong with either the Sony or the Panasonic. As I said before, the Pioneer is easily the best sounding of the group and is a terrific match for our Arcam gear thanks to its Wolfson DACs, it's just a pity that it is such a limited player for those who wish to set their speakers to SMALL or wish to have a full working player right away (currently has no DTS HD MA or still suffers stability issues).

[svphile]

Well done markusp.

I wanted to get the pioneer but couldn't get past its shortcomings for extra cash. NO DTS-MA, bitstream/analog switching, high crossover, and analog set-up is a must in my system. Wait, why would I want this player? It seems limited to a very small market.

I've spent some more time with the 55K. Here is some bad news from my own observations. Some might argue me on this point. The analog audio isn't that great. Shocking, I know. I switched back and forth from analog DTS-MA and bitstream DTS core on Wall-e blu-ray. I felt the sound was better through my 350 accessing the DTS core. Not a big surprise that the 350's Dac's and BM would sound better.

It doesn't seem likely Arcam owners that lack HDMI audio will really be able to take full advantage of new codecs unless we spend way to much cash on a blu ray palyer with excellent analog output stage. If there is such a thing. (Denon/Marantz - too expensive with lack of functions) (Arcam/Oppo - hurry up already, especially Oppo, it will probably be affordable).

I just got a brand new replacement 350 from AAV. I hate to think about moving on from Arcam but the lack of HDMI audio is a real thorn in my system now.

Is it just me or is there always one thing missing from your system. It is always something.

[alcabs]

Thanks for the follow-up answers Markusp.

I think I know which player will be the best stopgap for me - Sony 550 at a little over £200 is a no-brainer low commitment minimal investment in Blu Ray.

I have also just entered the AVForums Comp for the Denon 3800 (well miracles can sometimes happen...). Would never buy one but if someone wants to give me one I can live with Profile 1.1 for the high quality analog outputs and alleged best blu ray pic quality.

Come on Arcam - give us some info on your new BD spinner!

[Eoin]

Hi there,

I'm in the same position as alcabs - about to take delivery of an Arcam AVS350 and I'm also in the market for my first blu-ray player. Thanks to everyone for their input so far, especially that overview from markusp. I was about to pull the trigger on the Sony, but this thread has woken my interest in the Pioneer, because of the superior audio performance reported.

If I could direct these queries to markusp especially:

1. In terms of pq, especially upscaling from standard DVD, do you think is there much of a difference at 720p between the Sony, Panasonic and Pioneer? (I have an Epson projector outputting at a maximum resolution of 720p - I don't plan on upgrading this any time soon.)

2. In terms of sound quality, is the Pioneer still a clear distance ahead of the other two with non-HD sound formats i.e. from standard DVD?

3. And thirdly, and I know that this is highly subjective, does the Pioneer's superior audio prowess overall outweigh its limitations in relation to bass managemant etc.? (I could probably live with the other drawbacks mentioned -analog/digital switching though the menu, slow start-up time, price)

Thanks in advance!

Eoin

[markusp]

Originally Posted by svphile

I've spent some more time with the 55K. Here is some bad news from my own observations. Some might argue me on this point. The analog audio isn't that great. Shocking, I know. I switched back and forth from analog DTS-MA and bitstream DTS core on Wall-e blu-ray. I felt the sound was better through my 350 accessing the DTS core. Not a big surprise that the 350's Dac's and BM would sound better.

You know, your post made me curious as I never tested the analog on the Panasonic vs the digital on my Arcam AV8 (I only compared analog vs analog against each player) and was VERY surprised to come to the same conclusion. I tested Wall-E, IJ Kingdom of the Crystal Skull and Kunfu Panda and found I preferred my AV8 via digital connection in comparison to the Panasonic's analog outputs. Everything was a touch more dynamic and better integrated. Sure surprised my as when I did the same tests with the Pioneer a few weeks ago, I can honestly say that the opposite was true - the Pioneer sounds more detailed and offers a more immersive experience when using analog outputs PROVIDED I set my speakers to LARGE.

[markusp]

Originally Posted by Eoin

If I could direct these queries to markusp especially:

1. In terms of pq, especially upscaling from standard DVD, do you think is there much of a difference at 720p between the Sony, Panasonic and Pioneer? (I have an Epson projector outputting at a maximum resolution of 720p - I don't plan on upgrading this any time soon.)

2. In terms of sound quality, is the Pioneer still a clear distance ahead of the other two with non-HD sound formats i.e. from standard DVD?

3. And thirdly, and I know that this is highly subjective, does the Pioneer's superior audio prowess overall outweigh its limitations in relation to bass managemant etc.? (I could probably live with the other drawbacks mentioned -analog/digital switching though the menu, slow start-up time, price)

Thanks in advance!

Eoin

Hi Eoin.
1. I'm not sure which player would be best for 720p output as I only have a 1080p display. I guess it comes down to which has the best scaling, your Epson projector or the player itself to down-rez the signal from 1080p to 720p. I believe the Sony and Panasonic offer a 720p output setting to do the scaling internally while I believe the Pioneer does not per say but does offer an AUTO setting which detects what resolution the display can handle and sends the proper signal accordingly.

2. In terms of sound quality, the Pioneer sounds great for both legacy DD and DTS formats as well as with new Dolby Tru-HD etc. A friend of mine even prefers the internal decoding of DD and DTS to that in his AV9 which speaks volumes about the Pioneer's sound quality over analog (he has his speakers set as LARGE). If you wish to have your receiver or pre pro to decode SD DVDs via digital connection, you must switch audio priorities within the set up menu each time from analog audio to digital audio and then back again every time you wish to watch a Blu-ray over analog outputs. This can be a PITA if this is your dedicated player for both SD DVD and Blu-ray but is only an issue if you wish to decoding to take place in the receiver / pre pro.

3. The thing to remember is that most people who sing the praises of the Pioneer's analog sound quality have their speakers set to LARGE, eliminating the need for a crossover and thus only requiring a +10 db LFE boost which the Arcam happily supplies, and don't care about distance settings. IF you can only set your speakers as SMALL, then I DON'T recommend the Pioneer as it has a very high 120 Hz crossover point that is very noticeable with my speakers and in my setup causes distortion during loud action scenes etc. Pioneer is striving to improve the player through a series of firmware updates but I think they still have some way to go before the player becomes as easy to use and is as stable as Panasonic and Sony's current offerings.

So as I said before, IF sound quality is your top priority and you can run your speakers as LARGE, then the Pioneer is the easy choice. If you want a bulletproof player that loads quickly and plays every disc you can throw at it and don't mind diminished sound quality, then the Sony and Panasonic fit the bill nicely. As it stands right now, there is no perfect player out right now, even two years after the launch of Blu-ray and sadly we must wait until someone eventually gets it right. I have heard great things about the Denon and Marantz players but they are way out of my current price range and I would rather spend that kind of money on an Arcam anyway.